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VOLUME 27

A Message for Mother Dinadayadri  "Forget the the past"
 

 

 

VOLUME 27 CONTENTS
 
 
1. A Message for Mother Dinadayadri  "Forget the the past"
 
2. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that.
 
3. SO YOU WILL ALSO ROT IN HELL WITH TAMUL !
 
4. NNV's reply to PADA [the man cheated out of being made guru of Ireland]
 
5. LETTER TO DINADAYADRI dd , from sanat [complete version not PADA's cut version]
 
======================
 
1. A Message for Mother Dinadayadri  "Forget the the past"
 
 
"Forget the past, and make all progress in Krsna Consciousness
without any material lamentation or hankering"
 
 
My dear Dinadayadri,
   Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge your letter of May 8, 1974.
   You are a very good girl and a sincere devotee therefore, even though you have experienced difficulty you are remaining pure in Krsna Consciousness and keeping faith in Krsna and the spiritual master. This faithfulness has pleased me very much. So many great devotees have had to undergo difficulties, and the great example among women was Queen Kunti whose family life was perpetual danger, but because she always thought of Krsna she was saved.
   There is no question of your returning to Nara-Narayana. He has remarried, and I also informed him when I was in L.A. last time, that he should keep his one wife, living peacefully in L.A. You have got one child, so now make Krsna your husband and take shelter of our temple. The Detroit temple where you are now is very suitable I think, and you say you are much inspired by devotees like Govardhana and the others. So take spiritual instructions from your elder Godbrothers and sisters, forget the past, and make all progress in Krsna Consciousness without any material lamentation or hankering.
 
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
 
(S.P.to: Dinadayadri, Rome, May, 1974)
 
 
Mukunda dasa: So the whole basis of Mother Dinadayadri's letters on PADA is simply bringing out the past due to material lamentation or hankering. Srila Prabhupada instructed her not to do this. Puranjana supports her in her disobedience and as usual uses any issue he finds to deflect everyone "the folks" from the real point i.e. his support of the blasphemous Turley case.
 
Another point is that Srila Prabhupada often quoted Canakya Pandita regarding quarrel between husband and wife, saying it should not be taken very seriously.
 
Therefore Canakya Pandita has said, "Neglect this fighting. Don't take it seriously." Dam-patye kalahe bambharambhe laghu kriya (?). This should not be... Quarrel between husband and wife should not be taken seriously. Let them fight. It will stop automatically. That's all.
 
(S.P. Morning Walk  March 27, 1974, Bombay)
 
 
 So nobody takes very serious care when there is fight between husband and wife. So there also: "I'm going to immediately leave you, going to kill you..." and so many things. But after an hour, everything is finished. No more quarrel.
 
(Srimad-Bhagavatam Lecture 5.5.3  Stockholm, September 9, 1973)
 

 So according to Hindu conception of life, even there is some misunderstanding between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Never taken very seriously. But in your country, in the name of liberty and freedom, there are so many things. I do not wish to discuss all those things. But according to Vedic system, husband and wife, united together, there cannot be any separation. Perhaps you have heard the name of Mahatma Gandhi. He was married when he was student, sixteen years old, and his wife was also of the same age. Later on Mahatma Gandhi became a very famous man. So one day there was husband and wife quarrel. So Mahatma Gandhi, he has written in his own biography, he drove away the wife: "You get out from my house." So the wife got out of the house and was crying in the street, "Where shall I go?" And again Mahatma Gandhi went there, "Come on." So even there was quarrel between Mahatma Gandhi and his wife. So this quarrel of husband and wife is not very serious thing. So I'll request you, even there is some misunderstanding, forget it. Don't take it seriously. Simply you concentrate on Krsna consciousness business.
 
(Lecture at Wedding of Syama dasi and Hayagriva Los Angeles, December 25, 1968)
 
 
Mukunda dasa: Same instruction in the last quote "Forget it"
 
==================
 
2. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that.
 
 Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes... Of course, sometimes scripture we say that "Woman is the cause of bondage." So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that. (chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming to Krsna consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master. And Prabhupada means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhupada. So each, everyone shall treat others as "My master." This is the Vaisnava system.
 
 
(S.P. Room Conversation about Marriage September 24, 1968, Seattle)
 
Mukunda dasa: So at least one women hater in ISKCON before 1970 is it not Mother Dinadayadri ?
 
============
 
3. SO YOU WILL ALSO ROT IN HELL WITH TAMUL !
 
Puranjana: No, when we joined in 1970 we knew that these leaders were fools, and moreover Srila Prabhupada often said in public the GBC are fools. No one was obligated to accept any of these leaders in in 1968, and by 1970 we all knew the GBC were up to a host of deviations?
 
Mukunda dasa: So why did you all follow these fools who you knew were up to a host of deviations? How come you never tried to stop some of this deviations? How come you and all the others accepted these fools as gurus in 1977? How come you all didn't stop these fools killing Srila Prabhupada? How come you all didn't stop these fools changing Srila Prabhupada's books? How come you all sent your God sent children to these fools to be molested?
 
Also why don't YOU ALL admit that is is YOU ALL who are to blame for all the abuses not Srila Prabhupada because instead of fighting against Tamul's sinister movement YOU ALL looked the other way hoping Tamul would give you a share of his Guru killing bhoga is it not?
 
Then when YOU ALL had not been given a slice of the sinful pie you formed your guru-tyagi club name PADA with the aim to get Tamul out.
 
So yes you will all rot in hell as Srila Prabhupada told you in your dream. Because both guru-bhogi's and guru-tyagi's are useless persons. In fact the guru-tyagi's are full of desire in their hearts to enjoy like the guru-bhogi's but due to circumstances they cannot get the grapes is it not ?
 
So you are not different than Tamul, in fact you are worse because Tamul in his guru-bhogi lust killed Srila Prabhupada's form but you in your sour grapes lust are bringing dishoner to Srila Prabhupada's good name THIS IS WORSE THAN DEATH. WORSE THAN TAMUL'S OFFENSES. SO YOU WILL ALSO ROT IN HELL WITH TAMUL !
Puranjana's dream, Prabhupada's warning !

2) ODD DREAM (pada)

...And what is kind of strange is that last night I had a dream where I was reading a book of Srila Prabhupada and I came to a passage, "And there are some who want to imitate their guru," and suddenly, the size and color of the text changed to HUGE ALL CAPS RED LETTERS, with the sentence, "And those who imitate are destined to go to hell." No kidding, I swear that is what happened. For the past 20 years I've never had any mildly scary dreams, but in this dream I was scared, I thought, "Oh my God, have I ever tried to imitate the pure devotees? My guru Srila Prabhupada? Please tell me that never happened." It was scary. Then I woke up and thought, "Thanks Krishna for saving me from that bottomless pit, and reminding me of that pit in this dream, you are truly the friend of the devotees."  ys Puranjana dasa

================


3. NNV's reply to PADA [the man cheated out of being made guru of Ireland]

 
 
> Sanat: ps  other points: If their should be this Ddd-NNV discussion then it
> must be done acording to Vaisnava ettiquette, not in pud-rag NL totally
> unfairly, with NNV's responses censored; otherwise, as i mentioned n my
> essay, this is another form of abuse, because it's on the material
> platform of envy, malice and vindictiveness [and politics].


NNV das:    This is true!....No sane person of devotional mentality would be
able to say that my apologies for my actions done under complete
misconception of KC twenty seven years ago were not sincere.

My apology was (and is) cent per cent sincere.

PADA and Dinadayadri have both cleverly deleted my responses to both of
them, have let falsehoods stand without correction, and then dare to state
that ":NNV has not apologized"!

History repeats itself. Srila Prabhupada told us of how the British burned
the palm leaf libraries of Calcutta which held so many rare books as well as
the writings of great Acharyas...and then twenty years later
said,"See!...you are ignorant savages, because you have no libraries and
books!". And twenty years after the burning, the young school children DID
feel ashamed, because INDEED THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY BENGALI BOOKS.

So, PADA and Dinadayadri hoard my responses to them, and gloat over the
misunderstandings that they have created based upon their deliberate lies
and hiding of the truth.

PADA is not an Istagosthi forum, but a clearing in the woods where Puranjana
and Dinadayadri can hold a KU KLUX KLAN meeting while cynically claiming to
act for Srila Prabhupada.

In this way, they can meet under their anonymous hoods and plan a lynching
of whomever they want.

Neither of them posess even a shred of truthfullness, honesty or honor.


> ANY discussion by those purporting to be Vaisnavas must ALWAYS be in
> consideration of the highest principles of morality and debate,
> otherwise it's more harm or violence, which is why it's been exposed
> that pud, Roachford and associates'  highly esteemed Turdley trial is
> fully violent and harmful, because of its
> "VERY NOMINAL"  attacks on Srila Prabhupada, who is Religion
> Personified...So, similarly,  if this Ddd-Pud attack is just an attack
> and not an upright discussion meant to edify the audience, it's
> demoniac, being opposed to the principles of Bhagavad-gita...


NNV das:    Such demonic PADA-philia must be countered by sincere devotees
holding REAL Istagosthi where issues such as the domestic problems between
myself and my wife can be HONESTLY EXPLORED WITH AN END TO REACHING
COMPASSIONATE AND SPIRITUALLY INSPIRED CONCLUSIONS that will be exemplary to
others who have already suffered, or may yet suffer from deluded
mysogenistic leadership that exists within our Society to this day.

All of my children worship the Lotus Feet of Srila Prabhupada. Three of my
sons are strict brahmacharis living in each other's association and not in
any Iskocn temple. They read Srila Prabhupada's books, and chant all their
rounds and follow the four regulative principles. My daughter is a firebrand
of powerful preaching. She works with the rich and famous film directors
etc; teaching their children private art lessons, but the real result is
that they are all becoming enamored of Krishna. She co-organized the FIRST
AND ONLY WOMEN'S WORKSHOP HELD IN LA, and women came form all over the world
to participate. I fully supported her work. She also went to Mayapur and
confronted the GBC with a "j'accuse" type presentation that flabbgergasted
them.

My married son is a dedicated researcher into the subtleties of Srila
Prabhupada's SOUND VIBRATION through kirtan, and has dedicated his sons to
the RESTORATION OF THIS KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT.

They fully support the introduction of the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, and the
ISKCON CONSTITUTION written by Srila Prabhupada.

THIS IS WHAT PADA IS FIGHTING!....He, who is spiritually bankrupt, is
sinking lower and lower into a pit of self-generated venom that is
attracting only those who, like him resemble crows picking foul things on a
heap of garbage. WHERE IS HIS PIETY? WHERE IS HIS LOVE OF GOD OR GODBROTHER?
Is he so "great" that he cannot forgive? or feel compassion?...WHAT DOES HE
CONTRIBUTE THROUGH HIS NEWSLETTER BESIDES VENOMOUS HATRED?

Why has he antagonized EVERY ALLY IN THE WORLD THAT EXISTS TO SHARE THE
COMMON GOALS OF RESTORING ISKCON TO THE LOTUS FEET OF OUR BELOVED SPIRITUAL
MASTER?....His only true ally at present seems to be a Texas law firm
composed of Baptist lawyers who want to destroy Iskcon as the "Devil's work"
and smash the "heathen idols".....AND HE HELPS THEM!

 
> And of course, the genesis of this "NNV-expose" is that NNV also agreed
> with sanat and Mukunda that Pud had 'lost his caste but remained with
> empty belly', in that he'd proclaimed for years himself to be the
> champion of the abused, and his endeavor became self-defeated when his
> underlying philosophy and motive finally became known to others. PUD
> uvaca: "Prabhupada can be nicely blamed for these child abuses if it
> means i can bag my man, Tamalt, and climbhastily into his seat of
> ASSteam.


NNV DAS:    PADA conspicuously wants only to destroy....and it does not
matter what he destroys. THIS KING OF THE MYSOGENISTS now has found a "new
toy"....WOMEN'S RIGHTS!.....This is his greatest windfall!....All he needed
to do is learn a few phrases of "psychobabble" and he is "off and running"!

When he saw how easy it was to fool Dinadayadri into playing into his year
long attack on me, and that once "hooked" she joined in his viscious smear
campaign disguized as open forum where they REFUSED TO PUBLISH MY RESPONSES,
AND THEN CONDEMNED ME FOR NOT RESPONDING!, he then knew that WOMEN'S ISSUES
COULD BE ENDLESSLY EXPLOITED TO GET HIS READERSHIP UP, AND RANTING IN THE
STYLE OF THE JERRY SPRINGER SHOW.

He realized that TRUTH IS IRRELEVENT AND DOES NOT COUNT; that all he needed
to do was INFLAME HIS ALREADY BITTER AND RESENTFUL READERSHIP WITH ENOUGH
"BUZZ WORDS" TO GET THEM GOING WITH "TAR, FEATHERS, AND A ROPE". Then he
could sit back and watch the "fun".

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK AT THIS POINT: "WHICH SAMPRADAYA DID HE LEARN THIS
SATANIC BEHAVIOR FROM"?

 
> So this alleged Ddd complaint is nothing more than another 'clever'
> diversion by the assuras after they've been clearly exposed as having as
> their modus operandi hatred for the pure devotee, and a willingness to
> compromise with others blaspheming and impugning Krishna's
> Representative if it means achieving their demonic objective [of being
> in the 'driver's seat' in the pseudo Krishna movement,  after the
> inevitable isgone meltdown]...

NNV DAS:    So it seems!.....Dinadayadri invited me to enter into a sincere
and truthful dialogue to be held in the PADA "forum" that would be
insructive to others. She asked for my sincere apology, and stated that she
wanted nothing more than to forgive me......THIS WAS A COMPLETE LIE, AND A
CRUEL DESCEPTION that was quite similar to the cruel desceptions she
practiced on me during our brief marriage. After the "warm and fuzzy"
expectaton of REAL CLOSURE AND REAL HEALING was dashed away by their
co-oplerative deceptions and cruel vindictiveness, I realized that this was
so reminiscent of our marriage, that I WAS NOT AT ALL SURPRISED!...I was
embarassed that I had imagined that her offer was real, and not simply the
cynical trap that it turned out to be. As a recovering co-dependent person,
it seems that it will take a long time for me to learn.

 
> Another point:  sanat did not blame anyone for wrongs committed
> tohimself, this is a nice fabrication from the pud fabrcation and
> character smear dept. Our request for state or Fed aid was because of
> the distress we felt from seeing the HKM destroyed by pudz peerz. And we
> needed time to continue expose these culprits, which we've done nicely,
> esp. the pud anomaly.
> We don't know what it means to vindictively accuse others [esp in pubic,
> and in a vindictive manner] of harming ourself. Our anger as widely
> documented was nicely vented at those miscreants who willfully abused
> Srila Prabhupada's and Krishna's cows, there IS NOT a single statement
> of ours  in thousands of pages of writings and public documents where we
> either complain against alleged offenders to ourself or entertain
> others' petty attempt to do the same [for themselves]. Pud knows this
> well. We fully agree with SP's philosophy that the identifier of
> 'wrongs' committed against oneself is EQUALLY CULPABLE, because 'trnad
> api sunicena', i must tolerate wrongs to myself , but not to others, esp
> Visnu or Visnu Bhakta, Srila Prabhupada
> And we haven't cared at all for pudz ridiculous and insupportable
> attacks on us, and we don't protest, he can abuse us in any way he
> desires, though atleast we can set the record straight in terms of a lie
> he promulgates to otherwise attempt to discredit our aforementioned
> brilliant essay, which essay is NOT borne out of some petty attempt to
> defend our self or OUR ego, actually it was 'Sastra-Defense essay,
> because Pud promotes anti-sastric conclusions, and he best does this by
> character-smearing or assassinating ANYONE who exposes his perfidious
> and invidious philosophy and dealings...

NNV das:    This is a very important point that Yaduvendu missed. EACH AND
EVERY ONE OF US WHO SUFFERS, WHETHER AT THE HANDS OF DEMONS OR AT THE HANDS
OF FAMILY MEMBERS AND LOVED ONES IS SIMPLY PAYING OFF ONE'S BURNDEN OF
KARMA. Right now, I am being "cracked loose" from immense burdens of karma
due to the unrelenting and most un-Vaishnava attacks by PADA, Dinadayadri,
and others who seem more than willing to "throw the first stone".

If PADA had published my many responses and apolotgies, IT WOULD BE AMPLY
CLEAR THAT I DO NOT BLAME ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF FOR THE SUFFERING THAT I
EXPERIENCE IN THIS OR ANY OTHER LIFETIME!

Nor do I blame Srila Prabhupada or any of my godbrothers who definitely
mislead me at a time that I was quite vulnerable to being guided. I NEVER
CEASE TO BE SPIRIT SOUL, AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE, AM NEVER FREE FROM
RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTS WHETHER ACTING UNDER THE ILLUSORY ENERGY OR
ACTING UNDER THE DIRECTION OF GURU AND KRISHNA.

Srila Prabhupada would NEVER make the horrible accusations that PADA
typically generates, nor would he tolerate such BLASPHEMING OF DEVOTEES WHO
HAVE DEDICATED THEIR LIVES TO SPREADING THE GENUINE GLORIES OF KRISHNA'S
HOLY NAME!

That we all have flaws, is a simple fact. THAT THESE FLAWS SHOULD BE
EXPLOITED IN A WAY TO OBSCURE THE POSSIBLITY OF PARTAKING IN DEVOTIONAL
SERVICE IS CLEARLY DEMONIAC.

If Srila Prabhupada had taken that point of view, then where would any of us
be?
 

>
> From: pada@neteze.com
> Date: Sunday, January 7, 2001 9:21 PM
> To: pada@neteze.com
> Subject: 1.7 women abuse
>
> Dear folks, PAMMHO AGTSP,
>
>

>
> SANAT AND NNV SPECIAL --
>
> Dear Sanat prabhu,
>
> PAMHO, AGTSP!
>
> NNV: In terms of gender relationships, the early days of Iskcon were
> brutally horrible beyond belief.
>
> [PADA: Wrong, there were very few women beaters in ISKCON in the early
> days. And the men and women mixed, and did service together, and there were
> few "big" problems. In India there were maybe 25 devotees of mixed gender
> travelling together and we all pretty much got along fine. NNV is trying to
> justify his "horrible beyond belief" actions by saying it was widespread.
> Wrong portrayal of ISKCON: and Srila Prabhupada.]

NNV das:    PADA deliberatly misleads here:...I MAKE IT SUFFICIENTLY CLEAR
THAT THE ABUSES TO WOMEN ENTERED WITH GARGAMUNI'S ABUSE TO HIS FIRST WIFE
KARUNAMAYEE, AND THEN THIS ABUSE SYNDROM VERY QUICKLY SPREAD ALL AROUND THE
MOVEMENT. In the spirng of 1968, I will agree with PADA that there was very
little abuse. By the end of 1969, ABUSE OF WOMEN WAS THE OFFICIAL STANDARD
IN ISKCON. If PADA does not know this, then he should check Yaduvendu's
posting on that same subject on PADA.

in early 1970, I brought Dinadayadri to Los Angeles to get her brahmin
initiation on my direct recommendation to Srila Prabhupada. When I arrived
there , Gargamini informed me that "ANY MAN CAN SLAP ANY BRAHMACHARINI IF
SHE IS NOT SUBMISSIVE" "IF SHE DOES NOT TOLERATE THIS TREATMENT, THEN WE
TAKE AWAY HER NECK BEADS AND KICK HER INTO THE STREET". This behavior
existed in practically all the temples in Iskcon from 1970 to 1975. PADA
knows this, and is lying by stating the opposite.
>
> NNV: I was not so fortunate. When I joined, a new brutality had set in.
>
> [PADA: Nonsense. There was not a "big brutality" progam going on especially
> in the early days. This is your re-writing of history.]

NNV das:    The brutality began in 1970, and in many cases, has not yet
ended.

> NNV: I joined in San Francisco in 1968.
>
> [PADA: When you joined there were hardly even any married couples, period,
> what to speak of "a lot of beaters." This is simply false.]

NNV das:    This is true!...There were very few married couples, and I too,
was not married, but a brahmachari for quite a while. Therefore, I was not
involved in spousal abuse, since I did not have a spouse.

 
> NNV: My immedialte "Authorities" and mentors were Tamal Krishna, and
> Gargamuni ...both complete and "unreconstructed" misogenists. Bhavananda,
> who hated women and children, was my assistant, and then associate.
>
> [PADA: OK, so you looked up to the wrong people as your mentors, that was
> and is your problem. Srila Prabhupada should have been your ideal, not
> these bums.]

NNV das:    So what was PADA doing at that  time?....why was HE not
interested in having "Srila Prabhupada" as his ideal?.....He was busy
followintg the SAME ISKCON LEADERS THAT I AND ALL MY GODBROTHERS WERE
FOLLOWIHNG!...He did not break with these leaders until he was CHEATED OUT
OF BEING MADE GURU OF IRELAND, WHICH HAD BEEN PROMISED TO HIM IN RETURN TO
HIS LOYALTY TO THE ABUSERS!...This should be known!


> NNV: I worked under the direction of Jayatirtha and Rameshwara and
> Karandhar, all of whom held women in Contempt.
>
> [PADA: Well, maybe, but these guys were not women beaters, at least we
> never heard of it?]

NNV das:    Later, Jayatirtha became an almost unbelievable abuser of women,
Karandhar beat his two wives, one of which was the same Karunamayee dd that
had been married to Gargamuni.

 
> NNV: I had never lived in a "nest" of  active homosexuals before. It seemed
> that they had a "cult" of hatred for women, sneering and mocking them as
> though they had no value whatsoever.
>
> [PADA: So why were you following them? You were not supposed to follow them?]


NNV das:    Then why did Puranjan follow them?....Isn't the pot calling the
kettle black? Puranjan followed anyone who would feed him, and he seldom did
ANY service including chanting his rounds, or rising early in any temple.
NOW HE IS THE "KING" OF "FAULT FINDING"!...
 
> NNV: These were my "mentors" my "authorities" and furthermore, Srila
> Prabhupada had sent me a letter in 1968 (or early 1969) requesting that I
> strictly obey the temple "authorities" even if I did not agree that their
> agenda's were Krishna Conscious, or obedient to Him!
>
> [PADA: Well, now you are blaming Srila Prabhupada for your abusive behaviors.]


NNV das:    That is a VERY "cheap shot"!....Does Puranjan suggest that if
Srila Prabhupada clearly stated that "Just as you obey me, obey my
representatives" that I SHOULD HAVE DISOBEYED THAT ORDER?...(Doesn't it
appear that Puranjan has not thought this one through?....I clearly do not
blame Srila Prabhupada for my "abusive behavior" or any other offense to
Krishna's Holy Name, or his Sincere Servants. My offenses are my own.

It was to our SPIRITUAL ADVANTAGE to work together under Srila Prabhupada's
directions EVEN IF IT MEANT THAT SO MANY BAD MISTAKES WERE MADE, AND SO MANY
PERSONS LIKE ALL OF US (INCLUDING DINADAYADRI) WERE HURT IN THE PROCESS.

OUR HURT WAS MATERIAL, THE ADVANTAGE OF CO-OPERATING TOGETHER WAS
SPIRITUAL,BECAUSE THE END RESULT WAS SPIRITUAL.

IF SRILA PRABHUPADA HAD STRESSED "POLITE" AND NON-ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, WE WOULD
HAVE HAD A SOCIETY OF PERSONS WHO VALUED THIER OWN MATERILA AND MENTAL
COMFORT OVER SPIRITUAL WORK IN A RISK-TAKING MOOD. HE CERTAINLY DID NOT WANT
ANYONE TO GET HURT, BUT WE WERE HIPPIE DEMONS, AND WE WERE VERY EXPERT AT
HURTING OURSELVES AND OTHERS ANYWAY....When one devotee was exposed for
engaiging in  very degraded behaviors, the other devotees wanted him "kicked
out". Srila Prabhupada said,"If I kick him out, then I will have to kick you
all out"!. So Srila Prabhupada mercifully DID NOT KICK US OUT, but PADA can
interpret that "Srila Prabhupada created excuses for abusers by not kicking
him out".

The simple fact is, that we ALL HAD (AND HAVE) REALLY BAD KARMA, AND FOR
THAT REASON WE ARE GOING TO SUFFER KARMIC REACTIONS. WE KNOW THAT THESE
REACTIONS ARE MINIMIZED, BUT EVEN SO, SOMETIMES THEY EITHER ARE, OR APPEAR
TO US AS HUGE!...So what is to be done? Shall we prevent anyone who has bad
karma from joining Iskcon because they may either hurt others or be hurt by
others?


I AM BEING HURT RIGHT NOW.....AND I DO NOT CARE AT ALL, AS I AM AWARE THAT
WHATEVER HURT I AM EXPERIENCING IS A RESULT OF PAST SINFUL DEEDS ON MY PART.

Panch Dravida once asked Srila Prabhupada what to do about boils....Srila
Prabhupada replied, "A VAISHNAVA WELCOMES BOILS". "He knows that his karma
is beign reduced by enduring these boils."


> NNV: It seems to me that we were just like filthy "rats" that He trained to
> carry valuable jewels taped to our stinking slimy backs. Which snarling
> yellow toothed rat was "right" and which one "wrong"? Which was a "good
> obedient rat" and which was "a rat in complete "maya"?
>
> [PADA: Well, not many other devotees behaved like rats and bit their
> spouses' heads off like yourself?]

NNV das:    By 1974, many dozens of men were beating their wives all over
the movement, and if you do not believe me, ask Yaduvenu. As far as "rats
biting"....ARE YOU NOT BITING EVEN IN 2001?

 
> NNV: ...At every opportunity, we sank our teeth into each other's legs, and
> tried to bite each other's jugular vein. As soon as someone was bitten, he
> would howl to Srila Prabhupada to punish the rat that bit him.
>
> [PADA: And Srila Prabhupada told Dinadayadri that she did not have to
> endure your abuse, it was wrong.]

NNV DAS:    He did not tell her anything of the sort. Find a quote, or cease
and desist.

 
> NNV: ...in future... we will have learned not to beat our wives, or
> disrespect our husbands or abuse and molest our children, or sue ourselves
> silly while trying to blame others for the things we did ourselves.
>
> [PADA: This is a good admission. The abuse of women was then spread to the
> areas, to the of abuse of children, since the mood of "institutional abuse"
> was made acceptable by some prominent persons, and it is these people who
> are responsible for the lawsuit, not pada, as NNV admits herein.

NNV das:    Since PADA accuses individuals of mistaken activity, and
condemns pointing out that the leaders that we all (including Puranjan) were
following were recommending the abuses,

Then Puranjana probably does not want the organizers of the molestation of
the children exposed, as it will take away from the responsibility of
individuals.


 
> NNV: Sanat prabhu, Your essay below is brilliant. The only reason that I do
> not feel comfortable praising it more strongly, is that I am not in a
> position to do so. I have been rightly accused of striking my wife on close
> to a dozen occasions during our four year marriage, so it is completely
> inappropriate for me to expound on how my wife's suffering was caused by
> her Karma.
>
> [PADA: Very significant point, Sanat/ Mukunda are giving the argument that
> the abuse victims are "getting their karma" (see below) which is what the
> GBC has argued all along.]

NNV das:    Is Puranjan suggesting that the Gurukulies were and are FREE
FROM KARMA, and that their suffering was caused by something OTHER THAN
KARMA?

The flaw of the GBC is the same flaw of ANY criminal. The victim ALWAYS has
the karma to suffer, but the person hurting the victim CREATES KARMA FOR
HIMSELF BY HURTING THE VICTIM.

If Puranjana disagrees with THAT point which is entry level Hinduism, then
he is not qualified to even be a Bhuddist!


 
> NNV: In short, our Karma COULD NOT ACT, unless Krishna as Supersoul
> empowerd our every action. ...IT MUST BE NOTED HOWEVER, THAT ALTHOUGH NO
> ONE IS KILLED WHO DOES NOT FULLY DESERVE TO BE KILLED, THE KILLER OF THIS
> PERSON PERFORMS A DEED OF "VIKARMA" AND THAT HE IS FULLY KARMICALLY
> RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS EGREGIOUS MISUSE OF FREE WILL.
>
> [PADA: Well good, so that means you have to take responsiblity and quit
> blaming the so-called mob rule mentality of abuse that you allege was going
> on in early ISKCON, but which we did not observe in early ISKCON?

NNV das:    so why does Puranjan support the Turley case?...Isn't the whole
case based on "blaming the so-called mob rule"...Puranjana's unmistakable
schitsophrenia comes in handy at times?




 >You are
> the one who has to take the blame, so why is Sanat contradicting you below?]

NNV das:    Puranjana knows quite well that I take the blame. He has read
pages and pages of my writing to him and Dinadayadri in which I clearly take
the blame. HE PRETENDS THAT I DO NOT ACCEPT THAT I MUST TAKE THE BLAME
BECAUSE HE HAS NOT PUBLISHED MY MANY POSTINGS TO HIM IN WHICH I CLEARLY TAKE
THE BLAME!

 
> NNV: It quickly became clear that PADA has discovered that the "POWER OF
> THE PRESS" rests not in what you say, or the balanced debate that you offer
> in your forum, but WHAT YOU DELIBERATELY REFUSE TO PUBLISH, in order to
> make things seem very different that they actually are.
>
> [PADA: You are still blaming your abusive nature on your being influenced
> by a so-called evil mood that pervaded early ISKCON, but which did not
> affect most of the other devotees who were and still are peaceful (hippie
> types?) ....even to this very day most of them are gentle souls?]


NNV DAS:    Your response does not apply to my statement above. (surprise,
surprise!)

By the way, your illusary "hippie types: were mainlining drugs with shared
needles, were giving venereal diseases to each other, were practically never
vegetarian, were invariably mayavadi, and dragged clean cut youth just out
of high school into UTTER DEGRADATION OF ILL MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH AND
DRUG ADDICTION!

Does Puranjana forget how many actually catatonic drug abusers joined Iskcon
(Including Vishnujan and at least a dozen others?) Iskcon is where the
"gentle hippy" types went when they had no where else to go, and death was
staring them in the face for all of their "gently hippie" deeds! Giving
adictive drugs to minors is hardly a "gentle" thing to do!

        
> SANAT: new improved version; LETTER TO DINADAYADRI dd, from sanat
>
> SANAT: ...These GN parents have [had] no excuse for not forming their own
> schools, especially after some of the children had been found out to have
> been abused in India.
>
> [PADA: Good point. Sanat was one of those parents, so according to himself,
> he has "no excuse" for letting these kids down.]


NNv das:    Had we introduced the Direction of Management, the Gurukulas
would have been controlled by the Temple presidents, not the pedophilic GBC.
There was NEVER  need to "split off" the gurukulas. THERE WAS (AND IS) A
DISTINCT NEED TO GET SRILA PRABHUPADA'S ISKCON MOVEMENT UNDER SRILA
PRABHUPADA'S DIRECT CONTROL. (NOT AGAIN, BUT FOR THE FIRST TIME).

THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THAT KRISHNA CAN OR WILL EMPOWER THEM TO RESTORE
ISKCON WITH SRILA PRABHUPADA AT THE CENTER ARE NO BETTER THAN ATHEISTS
POSING AS SERVANTS OF GOD.

SUCH ATHEISTS HAVE MUCH CAPACITY TO COMPLAIN, BUT CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACT.

A SERVANT THAT WILL NOT SERVE, WILL NEVER TAKE UP THE BURDEN OF MAKING HIS
SPIRITUAL MASTER'S DREAM COME TRUE.

THE RESTORATION OF ISKCON IS NOT DIFFICULT......"IT IS EASY"!...BUT ONLY FOR
THOSE WHO ALLOW KRISHNA TO DRIVE THEIR CHARIOT, RATHER THAN PURANJAN.
>

> SANAT: ...and didn't let them get a way with any offences to the cows,
> keeping in touch with Vets, the media,
> animal rights groups, and AAC donors.
>
> [PADA: Of course, if someone else contacts the media with any complaints,
> Sanat will say they are trying to ruin ISKCON and give it a bad rap.
> Meanwhile, he calls the media and says ISKCON is full of cow abusers.]


NNV DAS:    Puranjan does not agree that Iskcon is full of cow
abusers?...Just one wife abuser?


 
> SANAT: ...a faithful wife and a kind mother. It is said that Gandhari also
> voluntarily closed her eyes because of the blindness of her husband. A
> WIFE'S DUTY IS TO FOLLOW THE HUSBAND CENT PERCENT.
>
> [PADA: When a woman is getting beaten she should follow that "husband"?
> Even dogs do not live like that.]

NNV das:    Dritarastra was committing great offenses against the Pandavas.
Ghandari did not reject him for this even though she did not agree. Draupadi
could have plausably argued that due to King Yudhisthira LOSING HER IN A
GAMBLING MATCH TO THE KURUS, that he was an abuser, and not to be followed.
Devahuti lived in rags and starvation while her husband meditated for seven
years....DINADAYADRI WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE CONSIDERED THAT TO BE
ABUSIVE!...In fact, she would curse and condemn me any time her materila
comforts were even slightly disrupted, such as sleeping on an Indian train
(She called that abusive) and when a group of ten of us were arrested on
Sankirtan in LA, she told me that I was abusive for "exposing her to jail".
>
> SANAT: Now, with all due respects to Mother Ddd, NNV's wife, let's consider
> that approaching the PADA rag-letter with your complaints may be a mistake,
> possibly brought on by the illusory energy.
>
> [PADA: NNV beat DD, so how is he her "husband"? "Husband" means protector,
> not beater? Why is she obligated to accept beatings --from anyone?
> Moreover, Srila Prabhupada told her she was not obligated to accept that
> treatment? Are you greater than Srila Prabhupada? And why are you saying
> that someone who is beating Srila Prabhupada's child is "her husband," no
> he is a criminal. A beater of Srila Prabhupada's child is to be respected?
> He is you pati guru model? By you yes. Why by us?]

NNV das:    Dinadayadri never accepted me as her husband, nor did she seek
protection from me. She made it clear from the beginning that I was no more
than an accessory to her need of having a "husband" to provide for her and
arrange for her material comforts.

I do not think that it ever crossed her mind to even be courteous to her
"husband" or that she owed even a passing glance in his direction in
exchange for the loads of gorgeous saris, gold bangles, pearl nose-rings,
and oppulent opportunities for direct service to Srila Prabhupada. It was an
arranged marriage, she was on her own, and used every opportunity at her
disposal to undermine any work that I was doing in Iskcon. She was in an
arranged marriage, which gave her every opportunity to "get even" for all
the horrible sexual abuse that she suffered as a child.

"There is no divorce in Krishna Conciousness"...we were married in front of
the deities with a fire sacrifice. We were trapped in a loveless and
like-less relationship with each other, and neither of us liked it one bit.

 
> SANAT: ...whereas you (DD) are seeking consolation and empathy from these
> Guru-defaming miscreants for being UNchaste toward your husband.
>
> [PADA: A woman is being beaten, she complains, and that means she is being
> "unchaste"? This is what Kirtanananda said all along? Women should be
> beaten, and if they complain, they are unchaste. Just see the misogyny
> links here!]

NNV das:    What about marriage counselling? What about family therapy? what
about some sort of healing?.....Out of guild and self-bewilderment I spent
many years in individual and group counselling in order to gain some insight
as to why I slapped my wife in 1972. My work paid off, and I have been able
to empower my daughters fully as SELF ACTUALIZED WOMEN CAPABLE OF
INDEPENDENT VIASHNAVA PREACHING ON THE HIGHEST LEVELS!

 
> SANAT: ...There is NOT ONE precedent for this type of unladylike behavior
> in the history of Mahabharata or Vaisvava Sampradaya Siddhanta.
>
> [PADA: Ummm, a woman is being beaten, so she should accept that, or she is
> "unladylike"?]

NNV das:    It is not that she should "accept being beaten"...it is that WE
WERE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!

Yaduvendu says that ANY WOMAN JOINING ISKCON KNEW FROM THE START THAT WOMEN
WERE CONSIDERED INFERIOR, AND LESS INTELLIGENT, WITH SMALLER BRAINS. ETC. If
a woman joined, then this is what she had to accept....no?

(since Puranjan seldom attended morning class, he probably missed out on the
twenty years of Sanyassis lecturing on the inferiority of women....WHERE WAS
PURANJAN WHEN THESE LECTURES WERE GOING ON DAILY?.....ASLEEP IN HIS HOLE?

>
> SANAT: ...Certainly Gandhari could have EASILY found plenty in her
> husband's character to reject him, kick on his face, and later, with
> sympathetic supporters applauding behind her, to hang him in the village
> square,
> after much excoriatng diatribe and invective being summarily lodged against
> him.
>
> [PADA: Now NNV is like, Dhrtarastha? No, Dhrtarastha was not a beater of
> women?]

NNV DAS:    Dhritarastra was the cause of death of MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS
AT THE BATTLE OF KURUKSHETRA. He directly caused their deaths, which was far
more horrible than even the worst sort of spousal abuse.
>
> SANAT: ...Gandhari is known as the most chaste lady in the history of the
> universe, practically, because she stood by her husband no matter what the
> social criticism, and etc. Certainly the abuse you 'suffered' was
> insignificant compared to the austerities Gandhari endured.
>
> [PADA: Oh this is just great, women in ISKCON should be beaten senseless
> --and they should be happy about it. Why? Well, the beatings could be even
> worse. When we chop off one of your fingers, you should be happy. Why?
> Well, we could cut off two. Oh, so happy!]

NNV das:    DEVOTEES IN ISKCON NEED TO LEARN HOW TO PROPERLY RELATE TO ONE
ANOTHER THROUGH THE FAIR AND TOLERANT MEDIUM OF ISTAGOSTHI. Puranjana
CERTAINLY DOES NOT PROVIDE SUCH AN ISTAGOSTHI, THEREFORE HE IS INCAPABLE OF
MAKING THE CURRENT SITUATION BETTER FOR  WOMENOR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT
MATTER.

In 1996, I co-sponsored an ISTAGOSTHI in the Masonic Lodge adjacent to the
Iskcon temple in Los Angels.

I INSISTED THAT THE PLIGHT OF THE GURUKULIES AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF ISKCON
WOMEN BE FEATURED ISSUES, AND THE FLYER THAT I CREATE FOR THAT ISTAGOSTHI
CLEARLY ESTABLISHES PRECISE TIMES FOR WOMEN'S ISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED.

WOMEN CAME FOR THAT SEGMENT OF THE MEETING, (NICELY DRESSED AND READY TO
DISCUSS) AND PURANJANA WOULD NOT GIVE UP THE MICROPHONE AND LET THEM SPEAK.
IN FACT HE SAID THAT WOMEN'S ISSUES WERE NOT IMPORTANT COMPARED TO THE
RITTVIK ISSUES.

SO I HAD TO PERSONALLY APOLOGIZE TO RASA MANJARI AND OTHER WOMEN MANY OF
WHOM WERE OLD FRIENDS, AND THEY LEFT ROLLING THEIR EYES AT HAVING BEEN
CHEATED BY MYSOGENIST FANATICS LIKE PURANJAN ...ONCE AGAIN.


> SANAT: ...Aside from this example, the letter you cited from Srila
> Prabhupada [74-5-44] , wherein His Divine Grace cites the example to you of
> Srimati Kuntidevi, is even more telling of Prabhupada's 'indirect' or
> 'between the lines' message to your Grace: Kunti Devi certainly suffered
> quietly more than anyone else in Mahabharata, because in her case, her
> beloved sons were totally righteous, pious and adored and adorable by all.
>
> [PADA: What does this have to do with some neanderthal's beatings upon a
> woman? Nothing. Apart from that, we are not on the level of Kunti? She is
> an eternal parishada devotee of the Lord, so she can endure the
> un-endurable because she is internally, eternally, linked to Krishna, just
> like Prahlad maharaja endured things which Srila Prabhupada says "would
> have killed any of you." We are not on this level, nor are we supposed to
> endure wife beaters with the idea that Kunti endured some other problems,
> this is mixing apples and oranges?]

NNV DAS:    When does a person cease to be called a "wife beater"? I have
been a powerful supporter of women's issues for over fifteen years....Am I a
"neanderthal" in 2001? What does Puranjana want?....Until Puranjana decided
to use Dindadayadri as a puppet in his unrelenting attacks on me for totally
unrelated issues, she and I had a very cordial and co-operative
relaitionship going back over twenty years. We did not dwell on the mistakes
of Iskocn of the 1970's, but we put these things aside so that we could work
together co-operatively in spreading the Glorification of Srila Prabhupada.

Now we see that this violent and abusive rhetoric of Puranjana has disrupted
the devotional service that Dinadayadri and I have shared for so many years.

I did not like her,and she did not like me....but WE WERE SERVING KRISHNA
COOPOERATIVELY TOGETHER....Now that is disrupted...IS THAT THE BEST THAT
PURANJAN HAS TO OFFER?...TO CREATE MISTRUST AND CONTINUED OFFENSES BETWEEN
DEVOTEES SO THAT DEVOTIONAL SERVICE HAS STOPPED?

What would Srila Prabhupada say about that?


>
> SANAT: ...Have you ever read this treatise?
>
> [PADA: You definately have not. A woman is supposed to be protected, that
> is what Srila Prabhupada says everywhere, where did this woman beater idea
> come from?]
>
> SANAT: Have you seen any evidence that these persons in our Sampradaya have
> EVER made a public spectacle because of actions taken against them by
> others, especially their own husbands?!
>
> [PADA: A husband is a protector, a beater is a criminal.]

NNV das:    Even a Bhuddist accepts that we all personally suffer due to
reactions to our own past actions. Puranjana does not seem to accept this to
be true.

The "criminal beater" increass his karmic burden, and must suffer for his
actions. If he asks the person he has offended for forgiveness, and that
forgiveness is sincerely given, then the "victim" need not take further
births with the abuser in order to exact revenge for offenses past.

Forgiveness cleans the slate...Since Dinadayadri never had the slightest
intention of forgiving me no matter WHAT sort of apology I offered, she will
have to take another birth as either my wife or husband, or business partner
etc. in order to cause me grief. I hope that this gives her the heartfelt
satisfaction that she seeks.

 
> SANAT: ...is to be undisturbed by worldly calamities, WHICH ARE SURE TO
> HAPPEN IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
>
> [PADA: Woman beating is "sure to happen," so we "should just tolerate it"?
> No, even the karmis have taken special measures to go after woman beaters,
> and the cops in this town will spare no time, expense, and force to get a
> woman beater. On the other hand, woman beaters are sure to happen if people
> like you protect them, as you are herein.]

NNV das:    Who is "we"? ...Sanat is discussing THE UNDERSTANDING OF ANY
INDIVIDUAL THAT THEY ARE GOING TO SUFFER BY SOME MEANS (ADI BHOSIC, ADI
ATVIC, ADI DAIVIC) So an abused woman suffers her karma just as a man who is
attacked by thieves and beaten up suffers his karma.

If Puranjana seeks to BECOME JUDGE AND EXECUTIONER of other peoples's karma,
then he should naturally deal with his own abuse issues first.

 
>
> SANAT: ...Suffering all sorts of unavoidable misfortunes ONE SHOULD MAKE
> PROGRESS IN SPIRITUAL REALIZATION BECAUSE THAT IS THE MISSION OF HUMAN LIFE.
>
> [PADA: Woman beating is avoidable, we simply have to call the police. Why
> is this not avoidable? It is. Of course if we rationalize it, like you are
> doing, then it will occur more and more.]

NNV das:    Once again Puranjana misses the point. Sanat CLEARLY indicates
that suffering is unavoidable to each of us. The apparent cause of our
suffering is less important than the karmic reason for our suffering.

Even a Buddhist knows this!

Instead of calling the police,....why doesn't Puranjana simply gloat on the
fact that anyone who causes suffering to another living entity will have to
suffer many times over himself. THAT SHOULD MAKE PURANJANA VERY VERY HAPPY!

>
> SANAT: ...Actually there is no tiger, and there is no suffering; it is
> simply a case of dreams. In the same way, all calamities of life are said
> to be dreams...
>
> [PADA: Woman beating is not suffering? It is all a dream? So, why call the
> police? Why try to get help? This is all maya? Of course, if Sanat gets a
> belly ache, he goes to the doctor for his "dream illusion suffering."]

> SANAT: ...How does a devotee receive dangers? There must be dangers because
> this material world is full of dangers. But foolish people who do not know
> this try to avoid the dangers. Thus they struggle for existence..."
>
> [PADA: Oh goody, calling the police on your abuser husband is "avoiding the
> inevitable dangers of the material world." Read: you beating, or molesting,
> is inevitable, it is your karma, just accept our abuser-ness. This is
> identical to the preaching that was given to the gurukulis. No wonder they
> are so pissed! We are glad we have this in writing to show all kinds
> people! They admit, we want to make others suffer, and if they complain, it
> is their "foolish attempt" to avoid inevitable dangers. Yep, and we beater
> class are the danger because we are violent cult thugs.]

NNV DAS:    Sanat clearly and eloquently speaks for the Individual....not
for society. If we all blame others for our misfortune, and reject the law
of karma...then WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WILL IT BE?....Dinadayadri blames
others, Puranjana blames others. HOW CAN ANYONE EVER MAKE AN APOLOGY, WHEN
ALL THAT GREETS THAT APOLOGY IS MORE AND MORE BLAME?

If Dinadayadri said...."I was so disappointed in our marriage, and you
treated me so impersonally and harshly, but I know that it was the result of
my past sinful deeds"....IT WOULD BE SO EASY TO APOLOGIZE AND BEG AND BEG
FOR FORIVENESS!.....This is not AT ALL what is happening here.
>


> SANAT: Now, i may say i have never met you nor your husband, NNV. But i had
> never met Pud [PADA] either, but i can tell you honestly and openly that
> Pud represents "rogues and nondevotees" who are introducing IRRELIGIOUS
> PRINCIPLES.
>
> [PADA: That is correct, we do not endorse folks who engaged in violent
> physical assaults with jack-boots on a devotee woman's head and ribs while
> she is offering her obeisances to God, like Sanat's team does, so we are
> deviants.

NNV das:    So, even Catholics like Puranjan can go to confession, do
pennance and be forgiven...but not persons who slapped their wives a half
dozen times twenty seven years ago and then did a 180 degree change in their
lives and became the OPPOOSITE of "wife beater" and Puranjana thinks that
KRISHNA WILL NOT FORGIVE?

The Catholic church (which Puranjana so unreservedly represent) requires
penitent sinners to ASK GOD for forgiveness, not vengeful former wives. Yet,
Puranjana has put Dinadayadri on the level of God, by saying that only SHE
can offer forgiveness. I have asked her for forgiveness, and it is clear
that she never intended to give it, even from the start. So is it not better
for me to make my peace with GOD through devotional service than to try to
appease truly unforgiving persons such as Puanjan and Dinadayadri?

 
> SANAT: Thus your 'cooperating' with him means the opposite of what SP is
> calling for in the above.
>
> [PADA: Yep, you should be happy we are only jack-booting you fool women, we
> could do worse. We could kill you?]
>
> SANAT: Attacking your husband in public with a private grudge is certainly
> irreligious, and anyone 'supporting' you in this misguided adventure is
> absolutely NOT your well-wishing friend, or bona fide advocate.
>
> [PADA: Ummm, advocates against woman and children abuse, and indeed
> jack-boots on a woman's head while she is bowing to God, are deviants and
> irreligious?]
>
> SANAT: These Puds and associates are simply opportunistically using you to
> further their own demonic ends.
> PADA is NOT 'Prabhupada ANTI-Defamation, as he ludicrously advertises. He
> has openly admitted to "being COMPROMISED WITH TURLEY", which lawfirm is
> openly antagonistic towards Srila Prabhupada, and is currently defaming HDG
> regularly in the Press and on its demoniac website.
>
> [PADA: We never said we compromised with the complaints of all of the
> gurukulis. This is an outright lie. Nor has Sanat ever shown any text where
> we said we agree with the statements of the Turley case? But what is not a
> lie is that Sanat has made illegal public death threats to these kulis, and
> he has sent copies to the Texas lawfirm, and many other kulis, and that his
> illegal actions probably will end up in the court, and that will defame the
> religion: death threats to molested children, that is how Sanat wants to
> glorify ISKCON.]
>
> SANAT: ...PADA is encouraging you to defame and attack your husband.
>
> [PADA: A woman beater is not a husband, he is a criminal. Even the karmis
> know that.]

NNV das:    Srila prabhupada stated that "There is no divorce in Krishna
Consciousness"...does Tim Lee agree or not?
>
> SANAT: Impugning the husband, according to the great women of the past, is
> tantamount to defaming the SPG Hmself!! This is an incontrovertible fact,
> not some theory i made up.
>
> [PADA: Oh goody, when a woman is beaing beaten up, she should not protest,
> this is blaspheming Srila Prabhupada.]

NNV das:    There are many avenues besides divorce to solve marital
problesm, even serious ones. Unlike Tim Lee, Srila Prabhupada was against
divorce.



> SANAT: In court an important man is sometimes found to be a culprit, and
> the judge may be able to fine him a hundred thousand dollars and know that
> the man can pay it. But he may tell the man, "You just give one cent."
> That is also punishment, but it is greatly minimised. Similarly, we have to
> suffer for our past deeds.
>
> [PADA: Except when a woman asks for something for her abuse, she cannot
> take anyone to court? She cannot make her abuser suffer? This is rather one
> sided justice? The abuser gets mercy, not the victim?]

NNV das:    Srila Prabhupada's teachings invite us to help one another
advance in Krishna Conciousness, not make others suffer. This desire to make
others suffer for "trespasses" against us is NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN!..Are we not
supposed to "TURN THE OTHER CHEEK"?..We are all sinful persons, and have
made many many mistakes. Now is not the time to take inventory of who owes
suffering to who. Due to our material mentality, WE ARE ALL SUFFERING!...The
cure is to PURELY CHANT KRISHNA'S HOLY NAME...not spend our days defaming
one another. IF WE STICK TO THAT BASIC PRINCIPLE, THEN EVERYTHIGN WILL BE
RECRIFIED IN THE END, (whether or not Tim Lee believes that to be true.).
>
> SANAT: We should act in such a way that our KC can under no circumstances
> be disturbed, even if there is a HEAVY suffering. THAT IS THE INSTRUCTION
> OF KUNTIDEVI....
>
> [PADA: Except when Sanat's wife beater guru is suffering, then he re-writes
> the Bible to come to his aid.]

NNV das:    The bible says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
and "Forgive those who trespass against us". Tim Lee forgets that in Krishna
Consciousness everything is personal, not impersonal.
>
> SANAT: For instance, if the 'beatings' you allegedly received from Sriman
> Nara-Narayan Prabhu were a token punishement for some heavy suffering you
> would ordinarily have received [for some horiible sins you committed
> in the past], and if you rebel against Krsna's Will in handing you these
> VERY MINIMISED reactions, then that automatically means that those whom you
> harmed in this life or past lives can similarly ACCUSE YOU, Ddd, at
> some future point, and similarly demand recompense. Are you NOT aware of
> this fact, ie. Law of Nature? As we sow, we reap. If we don't take our
> God-ordained suffering in a KC manner, and rebel against the Lord's
> compassionate Supremacy, then we will be given much more severe 'lessons'
> to bear as result.
>
> [PADA: Wow! This above text should immediately be sent to all of the
> molested kulis as the textbook example of the rationale for their abuse!
> Great stuff!]

NNV das:    OBVIOUSLY the Gurkulies who suffered had the karma to suffer.
That does not mean that their teachers had the RIGHT to make them suffer.

It seems that Tim Lee does not believe in the law of karma.


Since that is the case, then  WHY DOESN'T TIM LEE GO BACK TO THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH WHERE HE CAN RANT AND RAIL  ABOUT CHILD ABUSE AND WOMEN'S ABUSE TO
HIS HEART'S CONTENT? Obviously this is much more important to him than
making spiritual advancement, which he has neglected completely in order to
pursue the "higher cause" of picking at 27 year old sores.
 
> SANAT: I would humbly suggest that you reconsider your position and amend
> your faulty behavior. Your husband, for all his faults, is one of those
> "perfect disciples of the acarya" who tries "to relieve the situation by
> sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master."
>
> [PADA: By beating a woman disciple of the Spiritual Master, he is helping
> the master?

NNV das:    "beating a woman" is a FLAW!....he is helping the Master by
trying to reform the VERY SAME ISKCON MOVEMENT (Srila Prabhupada's body)
that Tim Lee is trying to destroy!...That is the difference!

If a person turns his back on spousal abuse, works hard to promote his
Spiritual Mster's mission, Tim Lee then says that such a person must be
condemned in page after pate of PADA.....Tim Lee is SICK!


>
> your servant, sanat das
>
> ===============================
 
 
4. LETTER TO DINADAYADRI dd , from sanat [complete version not PADA's cut version]
 
 
Sent: 03 January 2001 21:37
Subject: Re: 'Wife beater guru' or WIFE BEAT HER GURU as Pud beats hisGuru?

 

> new improved version; LETTER TO DINADAYADRI dd , from sanat
>
>
> Srimad Bhagavatam 1.14.34 [in the Chapter titled Disappearance of Lord
> Krsna]     BY     HIS DIVINE GRACE ABHAYA CARANARAVINDA BHAKTIVEDANTA
> SWAMI PRABHUPADA MAHARAJA:
>
> TRANSLATION
>
> Is Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who gives pleasure to
> the cows, senses and the brahmanas, who is very affectionate towards His
> devotees, enjoying the pious assembly at Dvaraka Puri surrounded by
> friends?
>
> PURPORT:
>
> Here in this particular vere the Lord is described as Bhagavan, Govinda,
> Brahmanya and Bhaktavatsala. He is Bhagavan svayam, or the original
> Supreme Personality f Godhead full with all opulences, all power, all
> knowledge, all  beauty, all fame and all renunciation. No one is equal
> to or greater than Him. He s Govinda because He is the pleasure of the
> cows and the senses. Those who have purified their senses by devotional
> service of the Lord can render service and thereby derive transcendental
> pleasure out of such purified senses. Only the impure conditioned living
> being cannot derive any pleasure from the senses,  but being illusioned
> by false pleasures of the senses, he becomes servant of the senses.
> Therefore, we need His protection for our own interest. The Lord is the
> protector of cows and brahminical culture. A society    [like isgone
> "society", pudgone, AdriCon, et al con, bogus "reformkcon"]
> which is devoid of cow protection and brahminical culture IS NOT UNDER
> THE DIRECT PROTECTION OF THE LORD, just as the prisoners in the jails
> are not under the protection of the king but under the protection of a
> severe agent of the king. Without cow protection and cultivation of the
> brahminical qualities in human society, atleast for a section of members
> of the society, no human civilization can prosper at ANY LENGTH. By
> brahminical culture or by developing the dormant qualities of goodness,
> namely truthfulness, equanimity, sense control, forbearance, simplicity,
> general knowledge, transcendental knowledge, and firm faith in the Vedic
> wisdom, one can become a brahmana and thus see the Lord as He is. And
> after surpassing the brahminical perfection, one has to become a devotee
> of the Lord so that his loving affection i the form of proprietor,
> master, friend, son and lover can be transcendentally achieved. The
> stage of a devotee, which attracts the transcendental affection of the
> Lord, does not develop unless one has developed the qualities of a
> brahmana as above mentioned. The Lord is inclined to a brahmana of
> quality and NOT of false prestige. Thse who are less than a brahmana by
> qualification cannot establish any relation with the Lord, just as fire
> cannot be kindled from the raw earth unless there is wood, although
> there is a relation between  wood and the earth. Since the Lord is
> all-perfect in Himself, there could not be any question of His welfare,
> and Maharaja Yudhisthira refrained from asking this question. He simply
> inquired about His residential place, Dvaraka Puri, where pious men
> assemble. The Lord stays only where pious men assemble, and takes
> pleasure in their glorifying the Supreme Truth. Maharaja Yudhisthira was
> anxious to know about the pious men and their pious acts in the city of
> Dvaraka.
>
>
> Srila Prabhupada seemed to decide aaround 1974 that He had many 'false
> prestige' brahmanas, but hardly was there a class of true brahmanas
> emerging. Though there was plenty of institutional brahmins, brahmins in
> name only, ;sudra-'brahmins', etc.
> So SRila Prabhupada started strongly encouraging His disciples to
> atleast try for human life via Varnashrama--to go above their
> animalistic propensities by systematically engaging themselves and
> others in Varnashrama. Therefore HDG stressed more and more on plain
> living high thinking, rural village life, and cow protection. His
> conversations in 1974 especially served notice that the 'devotees'
> should now stop with all the pretense [ie. of 'being liberated', great
> devotees, etc.] and realistically find a devotional occupation [and
> eventually an ashrama] so they could GRADUALLY approach the supreme
> destination and scientifically arrange their society and society at
> large in this practical step-by-step process of satisfying the Supreme
> Lord...
>  
> 3.13.11 S Bhag.:
>
> TRANSLATION
>
> Since you are my very obedient son, I ask you to beget children
> qualified like yourself in the womb of your wife. Rue the world in
> pursuance of the principles of devotional service unto the Supreme
> Personality of Godhead, and thus worship the Lord by performances of
> yajna.
>
> PURPORT
>
> The purpose of the material creation by Brahma is clearly described
> herein. Every human being should beget nice children in the womb of his
> ife, as a sacrifice for the purpose of worshiping the Supreme
> Personality of Godhead in devotional service. In the Visnu Purana it is
> stated:
>
> varnasramacara-vata purusena parah puman
> visnur aradhyate pantha nanyat tat-tosa-kara-
> nam
>
> "One can worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, by proper
> discharge of the principles of varna and ashraa. THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE
> TO PACIFYING THE LORD by EXECUTION of the principles of the varnasrama
> system."  (Visnu Purana 3.8.9)
>
> Visnu worship is the ultimate aim of human life. Those who take the
> license of married life for sense enjoyment must also take the
> responsibility to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, AND
> THE FIRST STEPPINGSTONE IS THE VARNASRAMA -dharma SYSTEM.
> Varnasrama-dharma is the systematic institution for advancing in worship
> of Visnu. However, if one directly engages in the process of devotional
> service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it MAY not be necessary
> to undergo the disciplinary system of varnasrama-dharma. The other sons
> of Brahma, the Kumaras, directly engaged in devotional service, and thus
> they had no need to execute the principles of varnasrama-dharma.
>
>
> Yes, the Four Kumaras are liberated souls. On Prabhupada's level. Not
> kanistha and lower, as the western people were who Srila Prabhupada
> Acarya picked up in HDG's tour of mlecchadesa
>
> Of course there were many who presumed themselves liberated, and of
> course the prominent SPConv. is there wherein HDG grace  mentions that
> in a land of no trees, a castor tree is very prominent. Srila Prabhupada
> acknwledged that His disciples were falling down, not strict, not
> brahmincal, etc. DEfinitely NOT transcendental to Varnasrama [as were
> the Kumaras]
>
> But just to encourage them, Srila Prabhupada said they would be only
> 'practicing' Varnasrama for others' benefit, though Prabhupada well knew
> his own disciples needed to get serious about their own lives, before
> they could possibly help others. So he ordered them in 1974, March to
> start a Varnasrama College. At New Vrindavana. SDoG was there also. So
> why did SDoG cleverly evade his responsibility in this regard,and send
> the children from Gita-nagari to India rather than work with Paramanada
> at GN to innaugurate a Varnasrama-College, where the boys would have
> practical engagement in a bona fide and uselful varna? Rather than being
> shipped off to india where they could be abused and neglected?
>
> Srila Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama,then, when the varna is
> perfectly in order, THEN asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual
> advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in human
> society, or they're on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is
> a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we
> give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on.
> Hrdmayanonsense: First they should be taught a skill.
> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided
> into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is
> what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not
> know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the
> society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment....
> SatsHedestroyiskcon: Should our children who are at gurukua, when they
> grow up, should they go to that varnasrama college, or, er, uh...?
> Srila Prabhupada: Yes,yes. They should go.
> HardMayaknotsense: We'll start it right away.
> SP: Varnasrama college means for grown up students. Colege means for
> grown-up students...after ten years, they should go to the varnasrama
> college.
> Visnujana: New Vrndavana would be an ideal place for such a school.
> SP: Yes, organize that...do that. Kirtananda..you, and combined
> together, do that...
>
> Just see the result. As NNV prabhu says, everything can be ascertained
> by the result. It can be seen by the fact that HardMayaknotsense,
> SatsValoosea, KS, etc. neither could set up Varnasrama [College, or
> whatever] nor engage in it themselves, that all these pretenders were
> BELOW the jurisdiction of Varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada tried to
> encourage them by saying that they ["WE"] were above Varnasrama and our
> people were there to guide the rest of society in Varnasrama. So WHERE
> was that guidance?! Where was it acted upon?:
>
> Visnujana: For example, in NV we have brahmanas that are very expert at
> tilling the soil and taking care of cows.
> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
> Visnujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that
> as well.
> rila Prabhupada: Yes. That's right. He is brahmana, but he's teaching
> how to take care of the cows and plowing.
> HeartMayaNotSense: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.
> SP: No, no.
> HMNS: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a
> particur subject and then teach that.
> SP: Yes.
> HMNS: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupada, because all the, at the
> present time in the...
> Srila Prabhupada: No, the thing is that actually, at the present oment,
> they are sudras or less than sudras. They are not human beings. The
> whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western
> or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the
> society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos,
> chaos. It will be hell. How people will live?  And these rascals are
> being elected as government men [like Ravinedra rascal was 'elected' to
> be an isgone 'government man'...] , and they're only making budget how
> to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice,
> especially in India.; and ne side, heavy tax. So they'll be all
> confused. They have already become confused. so in the confusion state
> it will be very difficult to make them Krsna conscious. Therefore
> preliminary help should be given. [just like NNV said: Gurukulis are in
> a very confused, disturbed state, having been exploited and molested,
> abused and abandoned, so how they can NOW take to KC or be peaceful?]
>
> So, anyway, SP ordered these people to set example themselves, take up
> Varnasrama, make a college to give help the confused populace, and
> neither did they execute this order, but also they themselves avoided
> taking up a varna or division of work and stick to it. SDoG
> [Satsvarurupe] was ordered first to create gurukul and stick to it. He
> managed to get Dallas GK going, and shortly thereafter, abandoned his
> grave responsibility, though SP didn't approve of his renunciation of
> such important post as GK Headmaster.  Meantime, Paramananda got fed up
> with Kirtananda, and there's that famous letter SP wrote to him saying
> in effect: THINK AND SERVE THE GURU N YOUR OWN WAY-- 'KS can serve Me,
> and so can you, Paramananda also serve the Guru'. So, Pd left NV and
> started Gitanagri in Pennsylvania. Later SDoG came there, after
> renouncing his duty as GK Headmaster. Now SDoG  became a big-big goru,
> and GN was a perfect environment for him to hide out in, pretending he
> was an uttamaadhikari, above ALL designations, top most swan like
> devotee, etc.,etc. This was FAR EASIER than rolling up sleaves and
> working as a humble 'brahmin-rep of SP and SP's Movement, to give
> suffering humanity some clue as to how they could be happy [in
> Varnasrama-dharma], ie. SDG AVOIDEAD working to set up a Varnasrama
> College at Gita Nagari, or ANYWHERE else...
>
> So, SDoG came also to GN and he and Pd developed quickly a symbiotic
> relationshp, a sort of mutual praising society, or mutual backscratching
> relationship. Pd could prop up SdoG  as an absolute guru, because in
> turn SDoG ordered all his disciples [and SP's too!] to "follow the
> absolute temple authorities" who were only also following the Iskcon
> "absolute authority" of the GBC/guru, who in this case was SDoG. So, Pd
> told all the 'sisyas' to "do it my way or it's the highway!!", which
> wwas backed up by SDoG, and in turn Pd completely allowed SDoG to
> pretend he was the pied piper and worshipable acarya, etc. [But, what
> happened to the idea that SP had already given to Pd: "you can also
> directly have a relationship with your SM."?]
>
> So why didn't these 'leaders' set p a varnasrama college at Gita-nagari?
> First they shoud have set up a Gurukula, and next a varnasrama college.
> But that would have been work, and uttamadhikaris don't require to do
> any WORK< IS IT NOT?
>
> But it should be noted that these false leaders methodically avoided
> implementing what they had assured SP they would do; and they had a
> perfect facility to execute all these ideas and concepts, ie. VA-College
> -  but rather than exert themselves [beyond popping pills for migrains]
> to do a nice program to help out their fellow man [and very innocent
> children from the farm, etc.], they conspired to take the easy road and
> ship the children [practically BY FORCE] to india, where someone else
> could 'teach 'em'...
>
> And therefore, all the members of this cheaters and cheated program are
> culpabe and punishable. Anyone who allowed these miscreants to cause
> them to send their children to be abused are suffering and will continue
> to suffer until they take full responsibility for their ignorance. These
> GN parents have [had] no excuse for not forming their own schools,
> especially after some of the children had been found out to have been
> abused in India.
>
> Just like the example i gave of Rasala and the Gita-nagari cows and
> bulls. He refused to compromise with Ravinedra and Satsvalooser's 'get
> the herd down in size-program', and even after five years of Rasala's
> defending the cows and working slavishly to protect them at all costs,
> and after RS had finally extirpated Rasala das from GN soil, Krsna
> turned him back around and, with my involvement and money secured from a
> wealthy hindu donor, we took charge again of the cows and gave them the
> best facility in the three world sfor cow seva: The GN
> Waldorf-CowAstoria, with the best seeded pastures this side of
> Govardhana...and for several years after the Ravinedra asuras kicked us
> out again [in 1993] we remained vigilante, and didn't let them get a way
> with any offences to the cows, keeping in touch with Vets, the media,
> animal rights groups, and AAC donors.
> Whereas Pud, Yashoda etc. knew of cases of child abuse way back when,
> and did nada [pada did nada?] to defend these abused children, by
> contrast, Rasala, Sri Krsna and our humbles elf worked combinedly over
> 16 years to ensure that the cows were safe even whle being in
> Kali-Ravinedra's raksasic clutches..YES, we did the totally
> unprecedented thing and right under the demonkcon controller's noses, we
> enacted a [Lrd's] plan to stifle the asura's 'progress' in harming the
> Cow praja from the cow molesting goruse [cmg], and we have our own cows
> now that keep us all enthused about SRila Prabhupada's unprecedented
> program of plain living, high thinking and good [milk] drinking...
>
> But Paramanada das, because he engineered a 'nice' molestation scenario
> under SDoG's poisonous auspices [even while generating plenty of
> cow-varna sankara, his own daughter [Jahnava] was also sexually abused,
> and some old man made a disgusting porno movie with her 'consent'; just
> like Pud asura, he couldn't bully the bullies back, and defend SP's
> children [even while posing as 'SP anti-defamer'  and chid-support
> services-Office, etc.] so then his reaction is that he's too busy to
> notice that his own daughter is being abused? And now SDog is a
> Defendant in the turley case, and we already exposed him in Ithaca City
> Court in May of 1996 as being the leader of the child molest/ Christ and
> Prabhupada-imitaters Club, and etc. Now, the big big castor tree
> [SCheaterGee]  Rurusvarurupa is being 'defamed' [or defanged] and is
> simultaneously dying of brain tumors after all the distress he caused
> the world by his demonic book pub scheme--for all the headaches he gave
> to sincere Prabhupadanugas like Sulocana, NNV,Padmahara,etc.] And why
> should we ignore the obvious? No, Prabhupada says: "go where these
> miscreants are and call them all ill names!".
>
> As  far as our 'quarrel' with Puranjana, the Pud demoan, we have no
> quarrel with anybody, but if someone is a public person and is defaming
> our Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada, then we are duty-bound to
> chastise such miscreants. And it's common knowledge that ANY and ALL
> public personalities can be exposed, lampooned, taken to task, etc.,
> without ANY fear of reprisal, etc. So PADA is a public entity and person
> by dint of its public preaching apparatus. Therefore it's only 'routine
> work' that we expose his hypocrisy and the damage his attacks on SP may
> cause in human society. Unfortunately, the pud'd intelligence has been
> covered over due to offenses,[not to me, but to Srila Prabhupada] and
> the only remedy is to make amends to the Guru and apologize to anyone
> who he offended by his blasphemous behavior, which he'll lkely NEVER do.
>
> In the chapter of S Bhag. titled King Puranjana Goes to the Forest to
> Hunt, Text 24, Translation:
>
> O hero's wife, kindly tell me if someone has offended you. I am prepared
> to give such a person puishment as long as he does not belong to the
> brahmana caste. But for the servant of Muraripu [Krsna], I excuse no one
> within or beynd these three worlds. No one can freely move after
> offending you, for I am prepared to punish him.
>
> In the Purport"
>
> "The conclusion is that if KC is covered by material sins, one can
> eliminate the sins simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, but if one
> pollutes his KC by offending a brahmana or a Vaisnava,  one cannot
> revive it until one properly atoes for the sin by pleasing the offended
> Vaisnava or brahmana. Tis was the course that Durvasa Muni had to
> follow, for he surrendered unto Maharaja Ambarisa. A vaisnava-aparadha
> cannot be atoned for by any means other than by begging the pardon of
> the offended Vaisnava....One's pure intelligence, r pure KC, becomes
> polluted by material activities. Pure consciousness can again be revived
> by the process of sacrifice, charity, pious activities, etc., but when
> one pollutes his KC by offending  a brahmana or Vaisnava, it is very
> difficult to revive. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has described the
> vaisnava-aparadha, or offense to a Vaisnava, as "the mad elephant
> offense." One should be very careful not to offend a Vaisnava or a
> brahmana. Even the great yogi, Durvasa was harassed by the Sudarshana
> cakra when he offended the Vaisnava Maharaja Ambarisa, who was neither a
> brahmana nor a sannyasi but an ordiary householder. Maharaja Ambarisa
> was a Vaisnava, and consequently Durvasa Muni was chastised."
>
> Unfortunately, due to his consummate foolishness, which has become more
> acute since his blatant offenses at SP's lotus feet, the pud anomaly
> cannot respond except thru his great anger [at being perfectly exposed]:
>
> Tet 22 TRANSLATION:
>
> My dear slender maiden, when a master chastises his servant, the servant
> should acept this as great mercy. One who becomes angry must be very
> foolish not to know that such is the duty of his friend.
>
> PURPORT
>
> It is said that when a foolish man is instructed in something very nice,
> he generally cannot accept t. Indeed, he actually becomes angry. Such
> anger is compared to the poison of a serpent, for when a serpent is fed
> milk and bananas, its poison actually increases. Instead of becoming
> merciful or sober, the serpent increases its oisonous venom when fed
> nice foodstuffs. Similarly, when a fool is instructed, he does not
> rectify himself, but actually becomes angry.
>
>
>
> 'wife beater guru', or  WIFE BEAT HER GURU?
>
> [sanat's mes sage to Dinadayadri dd]
>
> 1.19.48 S. Bhag:
>
> Thereafter, Maharaja Yudhisthira at once went to his capital,
> Hastinapura, accompanied by Lord Sri Krsna, and there he consoled his
> uncle and aunt, Gandhari, who was an ascetic.
>
> In the PURPORT:
>
> ...Gandhari was a powerful ascetic, although she was living the life of
> a faithful wife and a kind mother. It is said that Gandhari also
> voluntarily closed her eyes because of the blindness of her husband.A
> WIFE'S DUTY IS TO FOLLOW THE HUSBAND CENT PERCENT. And Gandhari was so
> true to her husband that she followed him even in his perpetual
> blindness. Therefore in her actions she was a great ascetic. Besides
> that, the shock which she  suffered because of the wholesale killing of
> her one hundred sons and her grandsons also was certainly too much for a
> woman. But she suffered all this justlike an ascetic. Gandhari, although
> a woman, is no less than Bhismadeva in character. They are both
> remarkable personalities in the Mahabharata.
>
> Now, with all due respects to Mother Ddd, NNV's wife, let's consider
> that approaching the PADA rag-letter with your complaints may be a
> mistake, possibly brought on by the illusory energy.
>
> In the above verse, the great chaste personality, Mother Gandhari, is
> being consoled for her immense suffering as the chaste wife of King
> Dhrtarastra; whereas you are seeking consolation and empathy from these
> Guru-defaming miscreants for being UNchaste toward your husband.
> There is NOT ONE precedent for this type of unladylike behavior in the
> history of Mahabharata or Vaisvava Sampradaya Siddhanta.
> Gandhari's husband's blindness is also described as such in relation to
> his being blind to the reproachful behavior that Duryhodhana, his chief
> son, displayed toward the pious Pandavas and their wife and mother.
> Certainly Gandhari could have EASILY found plenty in her husband's
> character to reject him, kick on his face, and later, with sympathetic
> supporters applauding behind her, to hang him in the village square,
> after much excoriatng diatribe and invective being summarily lodged
> against him.
> Certainly Dhrtarastra was most culpable for the entire carnage of
> Kuruksetre, and a strong case could have easily been taken up by M.
> Gandhari as to the utter abusiveness of her husband toward the kingdom's
> praja in general; and what to speak of all the widows and varna sankara
> that were created or engendered by the holocost known as Kuruksetre.
>
> But, NO!
> Gandhari is known as the most chaste lady in the history of the
> universe, practically, because she stood by her husband no matter
> whatthe social criticism, and etc. Certainly the abuse you 'suffered'
> was insignificant compared to the austerities Gandhari endured.
> Aside from this example, the letter you cited from Srila Prabhupada
> [74-5-44] , wherein His Divine Grace cites the example to you of Srimati
> Kuntidevi, is even more telling of Prabhupada's 'indirect' or 'between
> the lines' message to your Grace:  Kunti Devi certainly suffered quietly
> more than anyone else in Mahabharata, because in her case, her beloved
> sons were totally righteous, pious and adored and adorable by all. They
> were severely persecuted in all respects, derided, harassed, cheated,
> humiliated, and poisoned, etc. Yet KuntiDevi's sublime example is
> immortalised in the pages of Bhagavatam, and Srila Prabhupada's love for
> her was significant to the point where HDG printed an entire book on her
> insuperable teachings
> [a book, i must point out, was never reprinted by the misogynist
> TamaltGoonda squad! and the ONE printing these folks did do of TOQK was
> with the cheapest binding imaginable, so that it would quickly
> disintegrate...].
>
> Have you ever read this treatise?
>
> 7. My dear Krsna, Your Lordship has protected us from a poisoned cake,
> from a great fire, from cannibals, from the vicious assembly, from
> sufferings during our exile in the forest, and from the battle where
> great generals fought. And now you have saved us from the weapon of
> Asvatthama. 
>                        - Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.24
>
> But you know that Draupadi's sleeping sons had NOT been saved by the
> sword-weapon of Asvatthama [though Uttara's embryo had been saved by Sri
> Krsna], and Draupadi, who'd already been "rudely" insulted by the
> uncutured men in the Assembly Hall, where they attempted to forcibly see
> her naked beauty, was immediately forgiving of the sinful Asvatthama,
> and requested that her husband, Arjuna, release him and that his life be
> spared. Hve you seen any evidence that these persons in our Sampradaya
> have EVER made a public spectacle because of actions taken againstthem
> by others, especially their own husbands?! And Kunti's response was to
> pray:
>
> 8.
> "I wish that all those calamities would happen again and again, for
> seeing You means that we will no longer see repeated births and deaths."
>
> In Purport:
>
> "...This material world is certified by the Lord in the Bhagavad-gita as
> a dangerous place full of calamities. Less intelligent persons prepare
> plans to adjust to those calamities, without knowing that the nature of
> this place is to be full of calamities....The duty of the sane person,
> therefore, is to be undisturbed by worldly calamities, WHICH ARE SURE TO
> HAPPEN N ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. Suffering all sorts of unavoidable
> misfortunes< ONE SHOULD MAKE PROGRESS IN SPIRITUAL REALIZATION< BECAUSE
> THAT IS THE MISSION OF HUMAN LIFE. The spirit soul is transcendental to
> all material calamities; therefore, the so-called calamities are called
> false. A man may see a tiger swallowing him in a dream, and HE MAY CRY
> for this calamity. Actually there is no tiger, and there is no
> suffering; it is simply a case of dreams. In the same way, all
> calamities of life are said to be dreams...
>
> In this very interesting verse, it is described that vipadah -
> calamities or dangers - are very good if such dangers and calamities
> remind us of Krsna.
>
> tat te 'nkampam susamiksamano
> bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam
> (Bhag. 10.14.8)
>
> How does a devotee receive dangers? There must be dangers because this
> material world is full of dangers. But foolish people who do not know
> this try to avoid the dangers. Thus they struggle for existence..."
>
> So, my dear Mataji Prabhu, you are now complaining of this matter 27
> years later [after your calamity w/NNV] and pleas are being made that
> NNV pay some moneys and etc., as though this will mitigate the calamity
> or suffering. But this would indicate that you have missed the point of
> KC and Prabhupada's voluminous instructions, which are there to assist
> all living beings in seeing the futility of struggling against the
> unavoidable miseries. The very fact that this 'discussion' is taking
> place like this, is proof that you lerned not from the incident[s], and
> that now other people are being abused by your [and others'] refusal or
> inability to go beyond this your bodily attachment and perpetual
> complaining against 'others who harmed me'.
> And this type of non essential discussion diverts one's mind from
> important spiritual topics...like discussing Sriman Sulocana's treatise
> on women and marriage, etc. Wherein HG Sd points out the Gaudia
> VaisnavaSiddhanta that a woman is eternally wedded to her husband, and
> that the wife need NOT to even 'have a guru', because the husband is
> actually her Guru. If the husband, man takes a bona fide spiritual
> master, then the wife is automatically the disciple of the same bona
> fide spiritual master. She shares imperceptively in her good husband's
> pious or devotional activities, and advances evenly, alongside her
> husband....Also, In Srimad Bhagavatam, in the Chapter titled: Puranjana
> Becomes a Woman in the Next Life, this verse and Purport are relevant:
>
> TRANSLATION [4.28.43]
>
> The daughter of King Vidarbha accepted her husband all in all as the
> Supreme. She gave up all sensual enjoyment and in complete renunciation
> followed the principles of her husband, who was so advanced. Thus she
> remained engaged in his service.
>
> [this Text sounds like it might have been written about the
> aforementioned Srimati Gandhari Maharani...and indeed, this is the model
> for women as discussed in Sastras, which is never deviated from
> anywhere, which is WHY our Vaisnava philosophy is so sublime...CHASTITY
> OF WOMANHOOD!! ]
>
> In the PURPORT:
>
> Figuratively, King Malayadhvaja is the spiritual master, and his wife,
> Vaidarbhi, is the disciple...If a woman is fortunate enough to be the
> wife of a pure devotee, she can serve her husband without any desire for
> sense gratification. If she remains engaged in the service of her
> exalted husband, she will automatically attain the spiritual perfections
> of her husband.
>
> And in a later verse [4.28.48] (after the Queen's husband has passed
> away):
>
> O best of kings, please get up! Get up! Just see this world surrounded
> by water and infested with rogues and so-called kings. This world is
> very much afraid, and it is your duty to protect her.
>
> PURPORT
>
> Whenever an acarya comes, following the suerior orders of the Supreme
> Personality of Godhead or His representative,he establishes the
> principles of religion, as enunciated in Bhagavvad-gita. Religion means
> abiding by the orders ofthe SPG. Religious principles BEGIN FROM THE
> TIME ONE SURRENDERS TO THE SPG. ...Unfortunately, when the acarya
> disappears, rogues and nondevotees take advantage and immediately begin
> to introduce unauthorized rinciples in the name of so-called svamis,
> yogis, philanthropists, welfare workers, and so on....The main business
> of human society is to think of the SPG at all times., to become His
> devotees, to worship the Supreme Lord and to bow down before Him. The
> acarya, the authorized representative of the Supreme Lord, establishes
> these principles, but when he disappears, things once again become
> disordered. The perfect disciples of the acarya try to relieve the
> situation by sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual
> master. At the present moment practically the entire world is afraid of
> rogues and nondevotees; therefore this KCM is started to save the world
> from irreligious principles. Everyone should cooperate with this
> movement in order to bring about actual peace in the world."
>
>
> Now, i may say i have never met you nor your husband, NNV. But i had
> never met Pud [PADA] either, but i can tell you honestly and openly that
> Pud represents "rogues and nondevotees" who are introducing IRRELIGIOUS
> PRINCIPLES. Thus your 'cooperating' with him means the opposite of what
> SP is calling for in the above. Attacking your husband in public with a
> private grudge is certainly irreligious, and anyone 'supporting' you in
> this misguided adventure is absolutely NOT your well-wishing friend, or
> bona fide advocate. These Puds and associates are simply
> opportunistically using you to further their own demonic ends. PADA is
> NOT 'Prabhupada ANTI-Defamation, as he ludicrously advertises. He has
> openly admitted to "being COMPROMISED WITH TURLEY", which lawfirm is
> openly antagonistic towards Srila Prabhupada, and is currently defaming
> HDG regularly in the Press and on its demoniac website. So PADA, posing
> as a sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada, is factually attacking SP;
> and similarly, by the same token, PADA is encouraging you to defame and
> attack your husband. These two scenarios are very similar, according to
> the Vedas, though of course the unsupportable attack on Srila Prabhupada
> is millions of times worse; but, still, essentially, what these rascals
> are egging you on to do is in the same league, from a strict Sastric
> analysis. Impugning the husband, according to the great women of the
> past, is tantamount to defaming the SPG Hmself!! This is an
> incontrovertible fact, not some theory i made up.
>
> But the fact is you can't change your karma or even Krsna karma, it's
> not possible. Whatever we don't willingly accept as our just due, is
> going to come regardless. By doing what you're presently doing,
> INCREASED calamity can only be the outcome. Just like if i go before a
> judge in court of law, and make a loud, continuous noise about how the
> court is punishing me, the result will be i'll be in CONTEMPT of court.
> This is a fact in ordinary mundane law, as well as in Lord Sri Krsna's
> Government. If you don't believe it, go visit a law judge and find
> out...
> Srila Prabhupada writes in "Let there Be Calamities" Chapter of TOQK:
>
> "We should be very mch careful not to be diverted from Krsna
> consciousness. Even if there is danger or suffering in KC, we should
> tolerate it. We SHOULD EVEN WELCOME SUCH DANGER, and we should pray in
> appreciation to Krsna.
>
> How should we pray? Tat te 'nukampam susamksamanah: "My dear Lord, it is
> Your great mercy that Ihave been put into this dangerous position." THAT
> is the viewpoint of a devotee. He doesn't regard danger as danger.
> Rather, he thinks, "It is Krsna's mercy." What kind of mercy? Bhunjana
> evatma-krtam vipakam: "Because of my past sinful activities, I was meant
> to suffer very much. But you are mitigating that suffering and giving me
> only a little."  In other words, by the grace of Krsna a devotee may
> receive only token punishment.
>
> In court an important man is sometimes found to be a culprit, and the
> judge may be able to fine him a hundred thousand dollars and know that
> the man can pay it. But he may tell the man, "You just give one cent."
> That is also punishment, but it is greatly minimised. Similarly, we have
> to suffer for our past deeds. THAT IS A FACT, and we cannot avoid it.
> But karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam...: the sufferings of those
> who engage in devotional service in KC are minimised. For example, one
> may have been destined to be killed, but instead of being killed with a
> knife, he may insead get some little cut on his finger. In this way, for
> those who engage in devotional service, the reactions of past activities
> are minimised. ...We should act in such a way that our KC can under no
> circumstances be disturbed, even if there is a HEAVY suffering. THAT IS
> THE INSTRUCTION OF KUNTIDEVI....
>
> Therefore, we must take to KC and adhere to this consciousness UNDER ALL
> CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN IN THE MOST DANGEROUS POSITION. We must keep our
> faith in Krsna's lotus feet, and then there will be no danger."
>
>
> So, Mata Ddd, if we complain about our suffering--in the bodily concpt--
> and not tolerate the token punishments we receive, that means that we
> can become subject to others' COMPLAINTS AGAINST US. [Bhag. states that
> the "IDENTIFIER' of a mischiefmonger (against ourself)  IS "EQUALLY
> CULPABLE" in the crime...and what to speak of a woman chastising her
> husband publicly?!]
>
> For instance, if the 'beatings' you allegedly received from Sriman
> Nara-Narayan Prabhu were a token punishement for some heavy suffering
> you would ordinarily have received [for some horiible sins you committed
> in the past], and if you rebel against Krsna's Will in handing you these
> VERY MINIMISED reactions, then that automatically means that those whom
> you harmed in this life or past lives can similarly ACCUSE YOU, Ddd, at
> some future point, and similarly demand recompense. Are you NOT aware of
> this fact, ie. Law of Nature? As we sow, we reap. If we don't take our
> God-ordained suffering in a KC manner, and rebel against the Lord's
> compassionate Supremacy, then we will be given much more severe
> 'lessons' to bear as result.
>
> If a child is misbehaving in public [for example] and the mother wants
> to chastise the child, but is embarrassed to do so according to her
> 'normal' way [because people are watching, or other factor], she may
> mildly rebuke the child instead, and also look him squarely in the eye
> and beneath her breath indicate that he's 'skating on thin ice' and had
> better not pursue such misbehavior, taking advantage f her compromised
> position. If the child PRETENDS not to grasp his mother's 'reverse
> speech' chastisement, and instead not only continues acting rascally,
> but worse, starts howling in public about how his mom is being so
> 'horribly unjust', mean, and etc., you can be sure that when mother and
> child return home, his spanking will be all the more severe [than
> normal], and the incident will be LONG-REMEMBERED!! The same is true for
> us in Krsna's eyes.
>
>
> I would humbly suggest that you reconsider your position and amend your
> faulty behavior. Your husband, for all his faults, is one of those
> "perfect disciples of the acarya" who tries "to relieve the situation by
> sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master."  And
> those who are  ACTUALLY MISLEADING YOU in this situation [PADA and other
> self-interested fools] are the "rogues and nondevotees"  who are
> illicitly tying to gain votes and popularity for their flawed attempt to
> usurp the spiritual master's throne with their unauthorized
> principles...and no principle is MORE unauthorized than pseudo disciples
> Defaming their Master in public, or encouraging his spiritual daughters
> to defame their good or repentant husbands.
>
> your servant, sanat das
>
> Just like this Dravanaksa das: bringing up how Prabhupada was disgusted
> with his pseudo sannyasis, and told them to get married instead of
> perpetuating the farce [which is a good motive given for WHY tamalt
> wanted SP 'dead'...] Anyway, Dravunyucksya has never procreated any
> children for SP, and his wife is allegedly most nchaste in behavior as
> pseudo TPof Allah chew a temple. And they harass nice devotee familis on
> top of it, chasing them away, and letting them suffer complete rejection
> when they most need some support [in conneion with Curtiraja das]. So
> this Dravinyuchsha and Nanda renounce their SM's order as grhsthas, and
> allow great crimes to be perpetrated under their noses, and now are
> pointing out how "Prabhupada really did'nt want bogus renunciates!!"
> just see the hypocrisyand Anti-Vedic dealings by all these rogues and
> pseudo devotees!
> [see SP's statement s to Nalinikantha about a householder's declining to
> bear children for the Spiritual Master...and now all these people are
> sym pathetic to Pud, and don't appear to mind their Spiritual Preceptor
> being Defamed in Pud's turley case [of hanging their SM in the village
> square...]