REASON AND ARGUMENT
Reply to Mother Krishna Prema
Dear Mother Krishna Prema prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The statement you have presented from Srila Prabhupada "In pushing on our sankirtana movement of Krsna consciousness, WE MIGHT HAVE TO FACE DIFFICULT DAYS" and the story of Chand Kazi are not the same as turdley and co.'s blaspheming Srila Prabhupada.
First of all Turdley have had all the evidence nicely presented to them in the form of Srila Prabhupada's letters. They didn't respond to any of them but rather filter out my e-mails. See following links:
HAVE THEY MADE A PUBLIC APOLOGY AND REMOVED THIS BLASPHEMY AS THEY WERE POLITELY ASKED ???
On the the other hand Chand Kazi agreed to talk with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu on the strength of the scriptures, and after hearing these statements by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Kazi, his arguments stunned, could not put forward any more words. Thus, after due consideration, the Kazi accepted defeat.
Chand Kazi agreed to talk with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu on the strength of the scriptures. According to the Vedic scripture, if one can support his position by quoting from the Vedas, his argument is perfect.
(C.C. Adi Lila 17.155)
TRANSLATION: After hearing these statements by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Kazi, his arguments stunned, could not put forward any more words. Thus, after due consideration, the Kazi accepted defeat and spoke as follows.
(C.C. Adi Lila 17.168)
Did Chand Kazi commit any blasphemy to Caitanya Mahaprabhu's dear servants ?
So please do not compare turdley and co. who are blaspheming Srila Prabhupada, to Chand Kazi, who later became Caitanya Mahaprabhu's follower. You are quoting an example which is totally out of context.
You said "He says we might have to face difficult days but we should always follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When Srila Prabhupada says we should always, is that is negotiable?"
No it is not negotiable, but how Lord Caitanya dealt with Chand Kazi is one thing, how he dealt with those who blasphemed His dear devotee Nityananda Prabhu, that we should consider.
Just like Nityananda Prabhu went to preach amongst Jagai-Madhai. And Jagai-Madhai injured. "Why, You rascal, You have come here to disturb us?" And threw the piece of earthen pot, and Nityananda Prabhu was injured. Still prasanta. This is sadhu. Yes. "My dear Jagai-Madhai, you have injured Me. It doesn't matter. Chant Hare Krsna please." This is prasanta. He's not disturbed: "Oh, you have injured Me. I shall go to the police." No. Peaceful. "All right, never mind. You do not know how to behave; you have injured Me. It doesn't matter. Please chant." When Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu heard it, He immediately came, and He was so angry, that "I shall kill these two men immediately. Bring My cakra." Nityananda Prabhu said, "My Lord, You have promised not to take weapon in this incarnation, so kindly be merciful upon them." "No! They have insulted Vaisnava!" This is another example. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is teaching this humbleness: trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna. But when Nityananda Prabhu was injured, did He stop punishing them? No. At that time He became fire: "I shall kill them!" Trnad api sunicena does not mean that if a Vaisnava is insulted or Visnu is defamed, you remain silent, "I am trnad api sunicena." No. At that time you should become fire. That is the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Just like Hanumanji, he's Vaisnava. But when there was need for the service of Lord Ramacandra, he set fire in the Lanka. So when there is visnu-vaisnava-ninda, defamation, you should not remain trnad api sunicena. You should take steps. This is the instruction. Anyway, Vaisnava is never angry, but that does not mean that you tolerate insult to Visnu and Vaisnava. No.
(S.B. Lecture 5.5.3 Vrndavana October 25th 1976)
Similarly, anger can be controlled. We cannot stop anger altogether, but if we simply become angry with those who blaspheme the Lord or the devotees of the Lord, we control our anger in Krsna consciousness. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu became angry with the miscreant brothers Jagai and Madhai, who blasphemed and struck Nityananda Prabhu. In His Siksastaka Lord Caitanya wrote, trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna: "One should be humbler than the grass and more tolerant than the tree." One may then ask why the Lord exhibited His anger. The point is that one should be ready to tolerate all insults to one's own self, but when Krsna or His pure devotee is blasphemed, a genuine devotee becomes angry and acts like fire against the offenders. Krodha, anger, cannot be stopped, but it can be applied rightly. It was in anger that Hanuman set fire to Lanka, but he is worshiped as the greatest devotee of Lord Ramacandra. This means that he utilized his anger in the right way. Arjuna serves as another example. He was not willing to fight, but Krsna incited his anger: "You must fight!" To fight without anger is not possible. Anger is controlled, however, when utilized in the service of the Lord.
(NOI Mantra 1)
Nevertheless, when the Lord was informed that Nityananda Prabhu was injured by Jagai and Madhai, He immediately went to the spot, angry like fire, wanting to kill them. Thus Lord Caitanya has explained His verse by the example of His own behavior. One should tolerate insults against oneself, but when there is blasphemy committed against superiors such as other Vaisnavas, one should be neither humble nor meek; one must take proper steps to counteract such blasphemy. This is the duty of a servant of a guru and Vaisnavas.
(C.C. Adi Lila 10.85)
So if Turdly are not accepting reason, Srila Prabhupada says:
In logic it is called argumentum vaculum, that when a man is not accepting reasoning, then there must be stick. It is like that. When there are two parties--there is some disagreement--so one is not reasonable, then there must be stick. That is war. Just like animal. The animal cannot understand reasoning, so you have to take the stick. Then the animal will agree. If a dog entering room, you don't want him in, so you say, "Dog, don't enter." He'll not hear. And if you show a stick, it will go away. So for the dogs, for the animals, stick is required.
(Room Conversation April 22, 1976, Melbourne)
So we are saying to these unreasoning blasphemers "Now you are pushing your luck, you will be beaten by Godess Kali's stick" what's the fault there ?
Another point in regards to the quote you presented:
Following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, WHENEVER there are OBSTACLES the Hare Krsna movement should KILL the OPPOSITION with REASON and ARGUMENT and thus STOP their DEMONIAC BEHAVIOR. IF we became VIOLENT in every case, it would be DIFFICULT for us TO MANAGE our affairs
So Srila Prabhupada never said not to become violent. If we became VIOLENT in every case, it would be DIFFICULT for us TO MANAGE our affairs, that is what he says.
REASON and ARGUMENT have being used not only with turdley and co. but also with isgone and other blasphemers for many many years, by Sulocana prabhu and others such as Sanat prabhu (remember his protest marches)
So if all these demons who have rejected good reason, arguments and the evidence of Prabhupada's books, are now warned by us that sastra states that they are going to cause terrible violence to themselves and the whole planet (Goddess Kali's trident i.e. nuclear war, famine pestilence etc.) by their blasphemous behaviour, WHAT IS OUR FAULT ???
Prabhupada: No, we are speaking about Krsna. So if I say that Krsna says like this and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious, just like especially nowadays in Western country they are opposing that "This philosophy is a brainwash." So this is our position. Satyam bruyat priyam bruyat ma bruyat satyam apriyam.(?) The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly.
(S.P. Room Conversation with C.I.D. Chief January 3, 1977, Bombay)
Actually we are still reasoning with them, is it not ?
If they have a little God consciousness they will see this good reason and logic. The Lord in the heart gives remembrance, forgetfulness and knowledge is it not ? Just like Ragunatha prabhu he has the God given sense to see that this case will bring terrible reactions to himself for being involved in it, thus he has stayed well away.
It is PRABHUPADA'S ORDER that we combine and bring a defamation case against turdley and co.
They are claiming that Srila Prabhupada is a duplicitous leader of a child molester cult. This claim has no basis and can easily be refuted in a court of law. If we bring a defamation case against them this will be the perfect way for us to completely seperate Srila Prabhupada and his transcendental movement from the child molester cult, which is posing as ISKCON. If we cooperate together to defend Srila Prabhupada's honor Krsna will help us to fully expose this whole poison tree. Everything can come out into the public, including Srila Prabhupada's torture and poisoning on to death by the cult leaders. Maybe this will be our last chance to cooperate and make a real stand against this sinister movement, protect Srila Prabhupada's good name, get some justice for all the abused children and devotees and also prove to Krsna that we have some sincerity and love for His dear servant Srila Prabhupada.
IF WE DON'T DO THIS THEN GODDESS KALI WILL DO HER BUISNESS !!!
Your servant Mukunda dasa.
P.S. More quotes.
If you are always remembering Him by your activities and seeing Krishna everywhere, even in the heart of the demonic persons, then anger will never overcome you, being purified of all false pride. But occasionally if there is good reason, you may have to become angry just to chastise the evil doers and blasphemers. We have seen that Lord Caitanya once nearly killed Jaghai and Madhai for their offenses to His devotee, so like that, if there is offensive behavior to the pure devotees you may become like Nrsinghadeva and punish them severely.
(S.P. Letter Niranjan, 8/29/72)
One should not at any time tolerate blasphemy and insults against Lord Visnu or His devotees. A devotee is generally very humble and meek, and he is reluctant to pick a quarrel with anyone. Nor does he envy anyone. However, a pure devotee immediately becomes fiery with anger when he sees that Lord Visnu or His devotee is insulted. This is the duty of a devotee. Although a devotee maintains an attitude of meekness and gentleness, it is a great fault on his part if he remains silent when the Lord or His devotee is blasphemed.
Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has sung in his prema-bhakti-candrika, 'krodha' bhakta-dvesi jane: anger should be used to punish a demon who is envious of devotees. Kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada and matsarya--lust, anger, greed, illusion, pride and envy--all have their proper use for the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His devotee. A devotee of the Lord cannot tolerate blasphemy of the Lord or His other devotees, and the Lord also cannot tolerate blasphemy of a devotee.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.
I did not use the word insignificant so please do not put words where they
are not. Brahminical qualification is truthfulness. Nothing Srila Prabhupada
says is insignificant. Of course I deeply appreciate the quotes you have sent
me. I do not deny them. What I am pleading is that all courses of action must
be weighed according to the predominant example of Srila Prabhupada. Of
course he said these things but his course was to kill demoniac mentality not
make threats or commit violence either physically or spiritual. Real non
violence is saving the soul from committing spiritual suicide. Real
protection is smashing the philsophy of sahajiyas and Mayavadis with reason
and arguement. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is expert in this regard and Srila
Prabhupada is delighted to speak of his Guru Maharaja's victories.
I beg your tolerance in my presenting this arguement to you. Please try
to hear that I want to discuss with you. I am not trying to publically debate
you or insult you as if you are my enemy. You are my godbrother and Srila
Prabhupada has kindly made it thus. We should hear everything from Srila
Prabhupada and hear from eachother . Maybe you can win me over but not in an
insulting or demeaning fashion, though there are times I deserve such
chastisement. It is brahmanical qualification to be prideless and treat one
another with respect. Please consider that I am not your enemy and I am
sincere in my desire to defend Srila Prabhupada and his eternal mission.
"Simply receive the message from the right source and contemplate and
meditate upon that instruction. You are liberated. Chanting and hearing.
Hearing and... sravanam kirtanam. First hearing, then chanting. Hear from the
right source and discuss amongst yourselves. Istagosthi. Then the
perfection." NV 6/13/69
"I saw yesterday in your istagosthi you have tried to understand what is
this Mayavadi." Sf 3/18/67
Mukunda Prabhu, my differing of opinion with you is based on Srila
Prabhupada's instruction from CC Adi Lila VOL 3. chapter 17 wherein is
described Sri Caitanya's interaction with the Kazi. I know you know the story
but here is a quick view to make the point.
“No one should perform sankirtana on the streets of the city. Today I am
excusing the offense and returning home."- Kazi Adi 17.127
...for if sankirtana were an insignificant material affair, demons would not
object to it. The demons of the time tried to obstruct the sankirtana
movement started by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." Purport Adi 17.127
First Srila Prabhupada calls the Kazi ( goverment representive just like
lawyer court representative) a demon.
"After saying this, the Kazi returned home, and the devotees, greatly
shocked that they were forbidden to chant Hare Krsna, submitted their grief
to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu." Adi 17.129
Lord Caitanya's says he will kill Muslims. Srila Prabhupada explains how.
Lord Caitanya ordered, "Go peform sankirtana! Today I shall kill all the
Muslims!” Adi 17.130
Gandhi is known for having started the movement of nonviolent civil
disobedience in India, but about five hundred years before him, Sri Caitanya
Mahaprabhu started His movement of nonviolent civil disobedience to the order
of Chand Kazi. It is NOT NECESSARY TO COMMIT VIOLENCE TO STOP THE OPPOSITION
from hindering a movement, for one can KILL their DEMONIAC BEHAVIOR with
REASON AND ARGUMENT. Following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu,
WHENEVER there are OBSTACLES the Hare Krsna movement should KILL the
OPPOSITION with REASON and ARGUMENT and thus STOP their DEMONIAC BEHAVIOR. IF
we became VIOLENT in every case, it would be DIFFICULT for us TO MANAGE our
affairs. WE SHOULD therefore FOLLOW in the footsteps of LORD CAITANYA
MAHAPRABHU, who disobeyed the order of Chand Kazi but SUBDUED him WITH REASON
"Understanding the anxiety within the people’s minds, the Lord called
them together and spoke to them as follows. 'In the evening I shall perform
sankirtana in each and every town. Therefore you should all decorate the city
in the evening. In the evening, burn torchlights in every home. I SHALL GIVE
PROTECTION to everyone. Let us see what kind of Kazi comes to stop our kirtana
.'” Adi17- 131-133
Murmuring in anger and making a roaring sound, the people, under the
protection of Lord Caitanya, became mad through such indulgence. Adi17.140
Naturally some of the people who were very much agitated began to retaliate
the Kazi’s actions by wrecking his house and flower garden. Srila Vrndavana
dasa Thakura has elaborately described this incident. Thereafter, when Sri
Caitanya Mahaprabhu reached the Kazi’s house, He sat down by the doorway and
sent some respectable persons to call for the Kazi. WHEN THE KAZI CAME, his
head bowed down, THE LORD GAVE HIM PROPER RESPECT AND A SEAT." Adi 17 142-143
PURPORT Adi 17-144
SOME of the men in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s civil disobedience movement WERE
AGITATED because THEY COULD NOT CONTROL THEIR MINDS. But THE LORD WAS
thoroughly PEACEFUL SOBER AND UNAGITATED. Therefore when the Kazi came down
to see Him, the Lord offered him proper respect and a seat because he wasA
RESPECTABLE GOVERNMENT OFFICER. Thus THE LORD TAUGHT US BY HIS PERSONAL BEHAVIOR. In pushing on our sankirtana movement of Krsna consciousness, WE
MIGHT HAVE TO FACE DIFFICULT DAYS , but WE SHOULD ALWAYS FOLLOW in the
footsteps of SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU and do the needful according to the time
Now Srila Prabhupada who indicated the Kazi a demon, calls the Kazi a
respectable government officer. We can not take Srila Prabhupada's words away
from context of his example. He says we might have to face difficult days
but we should always follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When
Srila Prabhupada says we should always, is that is negotiable? We must kill
the demoniac mentality. How is this done? Reason and arguement and faith in
the HOLY NAME as taught to us by the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada who is
blemishless and above reproach. We do not sit idly by but combat from an
elevated platform. In this way we bring the message of Lord Caitanya and
these souls can be saved by Srila Prabhupada. This is the compassion that
Srila Prabhupada is offering us. This is the scientific process.
Haribol Mukunda Prabhu
Always wishing you and your wife the best in
Ksna consciousness,I am