2. If one simply maintains an official position in the four varnas and asramas



Jai Caturbahu prabhu !

Srila Prabhupada wants varnasrama established to facilitate people [us
included] being able to peacefully practice the conclusion of the
conversation between Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, namely
that one should hear from the realized soul [Srila Prabhupada]

In the prayer of Lord Brahma's that Lord Caitanya approves of, the words are
there Sthane sthitah. Prabhupada describes this as varnasrama. [see quote at
the end] So the conclusion of Ramananda Raya's and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's
conversation namely Lord Brahma's prayer has varnasrama included within it.

So Srila Prabhupada came to the west were there was no varnasrama [human
society] but simply animals. Through his books he introduce this principle
as discussed by Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya, and gave even those
outside the 8 orders of human society a chance to hear. So this was the

So as these [us] animals gradually became a little human, naturally they
would adopt the principles of varnasrama and by their example show to the
rest of the world [those in complete chaos] how to situate themselves
peacefully as a human being so they could HEAR FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA. This
is the main point of varnasrama as described in Srimad Bhagavatam

Translation: "Duties or dharma executed by men are only so much useless
labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Supreme

 [S.B. 1.2.8]

We find this conclusion also in Caitanya-caritamrta in a discussion between
Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya regarding a human being's liberation from
this material world. In that discussion Ramananda Raya referred to the
execution of varnasrama-dharma, and Lord Caitanya indicated that the
varnasrama-dharma was simply external (eho bahya). Lord Caitanya wanted to
impress upon Ramananda Raya that simply by executing the duties of
varnasrama-dharma one is not guaranteed liberation. Finally Ramananda Raya
referred to the process of bhakti-yoga: sthane sthitah sruti-gatam
tanu-van-manobhih (Bhag. 10.14.3). Regardless of one's condition of life, if
he practices bhakti-yoga, which begins with hearing (sruti-gatam) the
transcendental messages of the Lord through the mouths of devotees, he
gradually conquers the unconquerable God.
   God is known to be unconquerable, but one who submissively hears the
words of a self-realized soul conquers the unconquerable.
The conclusion is
that if one is serious about liberation, he not only should execute the
occupational duties of varnasrama-dharma but should also engage in
bhakti-yoga by beginning hearing from a realized soul.
This process will
help the devotee conquer the unconquerable Supreme Personality of Godhead
and become His associate after giving up the material body.

[S.B. 4.24.53]

So the demons in apa-Iskcon may have tried to use  the conversation between
Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to support that idea that they
were above varnasrama. But of course we know that they didn't even make it
to the human platform as we are now trying to do.

Your servant Mukunda dasa.


Krsna has given you, God has given you the ear. This is our system. Simply
they hear and they become big, big preacher. It doesn't require that he has
to pass M.A., C.B.A.C., or Ph.D. examinations. Hearing is sufficient. Sthane
sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. You remain in your position, in your
place. You do not require to change it. Sthane sthitah.
   Sthane sthitah means the varnasrama, four varnas and four asramas.
Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, and four asramas: brahmacari, grhastha,
vanaprastha, sannyasa. So this is civilization. Unless the society is
divided into these eight divisions, that is animal civilization. That is not
human civilization. You must be systematized, regulated system. Just like in
this body there are different divisions: the head division, the arm
division, the belly division, and the leg division. Similarly, without these
four divisions, no society can be conducted very nicely. Then it will be
chaos. So sthane sthitah means to remain in these regulative principles of
varnasrama. That is called sthane sthitah. You remain in your position. It
doesn't require you have to change. It is not that a sudra, without becoming
a brahmana... Of course, sudra will become brahmana--by hearing. Brahmana
means brahma janatiti brahmanah. If he hears, even a sudra, he can
understand what is Brahman. Then he becomes brahmana. So this is required.
Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. With great attention, body,
mind and words, intelligence--with everything, one must hear.

[Srimad-Bhagavatam Lecture 3.25.4   Bombay, November 4, 1974]

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: 30 January 2001 00:19

All glories to Srila Prabhupada,
Have you read the conversation on Feb 14 1977? The idea that we are not
to do varnasrama according to the conversation between Ramananda Raya and
Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is defeated by Prabhupada in this conversation with
Satavarupa and Hari-sauri.

Hare Krsna,  Caturbahu dasa Bhakti


2. If one simply maintains an official position in the four varnas and asramas

Dear Prabhu's pamho,. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The following section from the Caitanya Caritamrta reveals that these rascals such as Satsvarupa etc will fall from their puffed up position into a hellish condition of life for not abiding by Srila Prabhupada's order that they establish varnasrama, which will engage other conditioned souls in the Lord's service. [see conversation below] 
They simply maintained an official position in the four varnas and asramas but didn't worship the Supreme Lord Visnu because they neglected the order of His representative, Srila Prabhupada.              
Your servant Mukunda dasa.
   " 'If one simply maintains an official position in the four varnas and asramas but does not worship the Supreme Lord Visnu, he falls down from his puffed-up position into a heIlish condition.' 
   "If the conditioned soul engages in the service of the Lord and simultaneously carries out the orders of his spiritual master and serves him, he can get out of the clutches of maya and become eligible for shelter at Krsna's lotus feet.
   It is a fact that every living entity is eternally a servant of Krsna. This is forgotten due to the influence of maya, which induces one to believe in material happiness. Being illusioned by maya, one thinks that material happiness is the only desirable object. This material consciousness is like a chain around the neck of the conditioned soul. As long as he is bound to that conception, he cannot get out of maya's clutches. However, if by Krsna's mercy he gets in touch with a bona fide spiritual master, abides by his order and serves him, engaging other conditioned souls in the Lord's service, he then attains liberation and Lord Sri Krsna's shelter.
   "The followers of the varnasrama institution accept the regulative principles of the four social orders [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and four spiritual orders [brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa]. However, if one carries out the regulative principles of these orders but does not render transcendental service to Krsna, he falls into the hellish condition of material life.
   One may be a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, or one may perfectly follow the spiritual principles of brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa, but ultimately one falls down into a hellish condition unless one becomes a devotee. Without developing one's dormant Krsna consciousness, one cannot be factually elevated. The regulative principles of varnasrama-dharma in themselves are insufficient for attainment of the highest perfection. That is confirmed in the following two quotations from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.2-3).
   " 'From the mouth of Brahma, the brahminical order has come into existence. Similarly, from his arms the ksatriyas have come, from his waist the vaisyas have come, and from his legs the sudras have come. These four orders and their spiritual counterparts [brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa] combine to make human society complete.
   " 'If one simply maintains an official position in the four varnas and asramas but does not worship the Supreme Lord Visnu, he falls down from his puffed-up position into a heIlish condition.'
[C.C. Madhya  Lila 22.25-28]                     
Room Conversation
Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced
February 14, 1977, Mayapura
Satsvarupa: ...thought they were suppressed.
Prabhupada: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarupa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupada: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.
Hari-sauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...
Prabhupada: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarupa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...
Prabhupada: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like ksatriya should be trained up as ksatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
                   sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
                      yuddhe capy apalayanam
                      danam isvara-bhavas ca
                    ksatram karma svabhava-jam
   He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Ramacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Laksmana. Because ksatriya. They should be trained up as ksatriya. Therefore the varnasrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brahmana, who is able to become a ksatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, sudras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Hari-sauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupada: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kuruksetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari-sauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the ksatriya system in Krsna's time. Just like Jarasandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a ksatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...
Prabhupada: Everybody's sudra. Nobody's brahmana, nobody's...
Hari-sauri: No.
Prabhupada: Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-sauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupada: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krsna..., preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
                        arcayam eva haraye
                     pujam yah sraddhayehate
                     na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
                    sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
   The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.
                    srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
                   hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani
                      vidhunoti suhrt satam
   By becoming a brahmana, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brahmana. The other qualities, sudra quality, ksatriya, vaisya, means finished. So then next stage is, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah... Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brahmana nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, nasta-prayesv abhadresu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So nasta-prayesv abhadresu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing from Bhagavata or by serving the spiritual master and Krsna consciousness movement--
                     nasta-prayesv abhadresu
                     nityam bhagavata-sevaya
                      bhagavaty uttama-sloke
                    bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
   Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guna.
                     nasta-prayesv abhadresu
                     nityam bhagavata-sevaya
                      bhagavaty uttama-sloke
                    bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
   Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamah, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kama-lobhadayas ca ye. Kama, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness--these things go. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhavah. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitam sattve prasidati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guna. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasidati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varnasrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?
Satsvarupa: Religion professors.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, higher studies...
Satsvarupa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."
Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.
Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?
                    sve sve karmany abhiratah
                     samsiddhim labhate narah
                    sva-karma-niratah siddhim
                     yatha vindati tac chrnu
   "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can... As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarupa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarupa: Small.
Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken--"Oh, it is very big."
Hari-sauri: I don't follow the analogy.
Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-sauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...
Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...
Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be artificially become a brahmana?
Satsvarupa: What will the sudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarupa: Oh.
Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarupa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...
Prabhupada: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Krsna. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Krsna consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Krsna's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimudha-cetasa indriyartha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyartha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Krsna conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mudho nabhijanati. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Krsna consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varnasrama, that "Here is the position."
Hari-sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaisya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the sudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now--capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-sauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarupa: The laborers.
Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the ksatriya and brahmana?
Hari-sauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...
Prabhupada: That is not ksatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Krsna said... He arranged the battlefield, because the ksatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...
Hari-sauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupada: Ha. So Krsna arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield--one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not ksatriya. This is demonic. Ksatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not ksatriyas. They are not ksatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari-sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."
Hari-sauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupada: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-sauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.
Prabhupada: Why? Why revolution?
Hari-sauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brahmanas.
Prabhupada: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kanistha-adhikari. You are thinking of "we." That is kanistha-adhikari. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhaktesu canyesu. You have to think for others also.
Satsvarupa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari-sauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarupa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari-sauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupada: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarupa: Just like...
Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...
Prabhupada: But you take. You show them.
Hari-sauri: That's why we say, "we."
Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-sauri: No.
Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-sauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.
Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhavananda: Set the example.
Prabhupada: Example. Just like Bhavananda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyasi Vaisnava. Similarly, apani acari' jive sikhaila. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a sannyasi." But He took sannyasa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyasi, for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.